Laurie Penny's Mirror World

[ArcheryAnnie]

Apparently gender-crit women are a cult who don't tolerate dissent.

Laurie, come over here and have a quick look through the threads. Then have a look at your own lot.

Then tell me again who is "cult-like".

Just so that gendercritter's post isn't misunderstood, the point being made is not that trans people are predators, but that if self-ID opens the doors of woman's safe spaces to anyone who declares themselves to be a woman, then there is inevitably and unavoidably a risk that some predatory men, who do not have to be trans, will exploit this. They won't have to make any sacrifices, they won't need to undergo hormone treatment or surgery, they won't need to wait till their hair grows long, they won't need to buy any women's clothes. They won't even need to shave.

In a self-ID world, women will have no power to seek expulsion of these men unless there has been a sexual or a violent assault.

But more than this, even if assaults are few and far between, it will change the culture. Women will feel that their hands are tied against being able to enforce their boundaries. Women will perceive their safe spaces as being less safe than they were.

Women's concerns in this matter are not cured by hearing declarations that "But all of the trans people I've met are lovely!" It is not about there being many trans people in the world who wouldn't hurt a fly.

It didn’t sound wanky! Just wanted to clarify/reassure regarding the basis of my engagement with this discussion!

I am sure Penny is reading the threads and having a think....

She will realise that Lesbians aren't lying, or just being silly. Every time they see an article educating them, or well known vloggers explaining how to overcome their prejudices, they hear a deafening silence from their community when they should hear an uproar speaking against homophobia. Not speaking against lesbian phobia is endorsing it in my opinion, particularly when you are in the community.

A quick glance around the forum will also show that we aren't misinformed, we don't misunderstand and we haven't got the wrong end of the lady stick. We have educated ourselves about our rights and protections as they exist under law and we can see what happens in countries where laws are based on subjective feelings instead of objective facts.

Phew. Glad that cleared that one up. At least when she tweets in future she can state that we are informed and have genuine concerns which must be listened to.

Not all men are predators but they offend at a far higher rate than woman and are responsible for almost all violent and sexual crime. That's all males, subjective female feelings doesn't change how likely a male is to offend. We also need to talk about autogynephila, for some men this is a sexual kink. We used to know this, we all knew the difference between a transsexual and a cross dresser. Autogynephilia does not belong in a girls changing room. Women and girls aren't on this earth to validate men, we are people, we deserve to retain our protections which we won.

Penny, if you're still reading, why do you feel now is the right time to end all sex based protections? Do you think women and girls have too many rights?

Just so that gendercritter's post isn't misunderstood, the point being made is not that trans people are predators, but that if self-ID opens the doors of woman's safe spaces to anyone who declares themselves to be a woman, then there is inevitably and unavoidably a risk that some predatory men, who do not have to be trans, will exploit this

Yes, nauticant

It seems that Admiral Roland’s well thought out and intelligent post did not appeal to the person who is the topic of this thread. It however did make an impression on me.

Thank you Admiral.

Yes I'd like to second that.

I agree that Admiral's post was excellent and very powerful.

But she touched on something important, which is that liberal progressives who are interested in identity politics are really not interested in the plight of women in prison. These women are some of the most vulnerable people in society, often having been brought up in care, sexually abused, addicted to drugs, with mental health problems sometimes from minority ethnic backgrounds and not speaking English.

Why devote your energies to campaigning for the rights of those women, who have been oppressed by the harsh material reality of their existence, when identity politics is so much more appealing?

In other words, what works best for one's personal brand on social media?

But she touched on something important, which is that liberal progressives who are interested in identity politics are really not interested in the plight of women in prison.

The other big vulnerable group of women here - those whose voices are never heard and who have no social power or influence - are women on locked mental health wards.

The other big vulnerable group of women here - those whose voices are never heard and who have no social power or influence - are women on locked mental health wards.

Yes.

I’ve read court transcripts from the Hyde Park incident
Assault, not incident. I'm sure Maria M could talk you through the several videos of the assault if you wanted, no need to rely on court transcript alone, assuming women's accounts of their experiences of male violence matter to you?

I believe that there is a lot of simmering tension that’s really pretty disturbing
Perhaps you didn't understand the court transcript? Here is a summary:

• women arranged to meet to talk about sex and gender
• trans activists openly organised to have the meeting shut down, and "fuck up some terfs"
• the women met at Speakers Corner and trans activists arrived, shouted at the women, harassed some of them (you can see in the videos the AFA's getting right in women's faces), and three AFAs violently attacked Maria M.

Openly threatening violence on women on social media, and then committing that violence at Speakers Corner is disturbing. "Simmering Tension^ implies something much less than this, and as if all sides were equally responsible. Q Do you think that the women were equally responsible for the violence as the trans activists who committed it?

What I don’t believe is that trans activists are any more or less violent than any other group of activists
The assault on Maria M. alone makes it clear that trans activists are more violent than feminist activists. I never see feminist activists arranging to "fuck up some trans activists".
Q Would you agree that trans activists are clearly more violent than feminist activists?
Q Would you agree that trans activists are more violent than the women who are organising meetings to discuss sex and gender all over the UK?

One every side of this issue there are people who feel under attack, who are lashing out, who are finding it hard to remember one another’s humanity
This sounds a lot like victim blaming.
Q Would you agree there is a difference between feeling under attack and actually being attacked?
Q Do you think lashing out is an appropriate way to describe three young adults (all male to my knowledge) physically attacking a 60 year old woman?

There have been some profoundly ugly things said, including by ‘gender critical’ people.
Like what? Give some examples of profoundly ugly things said by gender critical people so we can see what you mean. Btw why are you using inverted commas round gender critical?

I don’t think what Posie Parker said, for example, is anything but hateful.
Posie Parker stated a fact about the extreme actions of Susie Green towards SG's own gender non-conforming child, actions which are illegal in this country. The extreme and illegal nature of SG's beliefs and actions towards her own GNC child should be scrutinised if she is going to be accepted as an authority on how all GNC children are treated.
Q Do you believe it should be legal for parents to book in their 15 year old male gender non-conforming children for an elective surgery which includes castration?
Q Do you believe that it should be illegal for people to discuss this?
Q Do you really think that it is hateful for people to discuss this?

it’s not my place to tell anyone else how to do non-violent direct action.
So then you agree that it is women's right to organise meetings where we can discuss sex and gender, and the impact of gender legislation and rules on our lives?

I'm finding it hard to see how in your view it is "not your place" to comment on other people's non-violent direct action and at the same time you believe it is "hateful" for feminists to speak about real events in frank but accurate language. Can you explain how you can hold both these thoughts at once?

I don't imagine you'll answer this but it helps me to read your words closely and wonder why you chose the ones you did. For a writer you are incredibly unaware of how revealing your words are about who you are.

AFA = anti-feminist activist, or trans activist if you prefer

Sorry for length to everyone else. You could literally do this with everything she says. She speaks like the slimiest politician.

Transactivists proudly show their violence for all the world to see - look at the San Francisco library exhibition that featured "blood stained" shirts, promotion of VAWG and axes and baseball bats wrapped in barbed wire.

To say this is equivalent to refusing to use preferred pronouns is absurd and disingenuous. It reminds me of police telling women that "it takes two to start a fight" when called to DV scenes because obviously our role as women is to be compliant and make ourselves smaller to avoid violence. Everyone who's been there knows there's no way it works - abusers never stop pushing the boundaries.

Excellent job unpacking that Joan.

Thank you, I was worried it was far too long (I have a problem with being succinct I know!)

I just find it difficult to address so much gaslighting and avoidance without going through it step by step.

Women here have done really good work pinpointing flaws and gaps in what Penny is and is not saying, and mostly avoided insulting her, which is a real feat in the circumstances. I know that in more male dominated spaces she has not been treated as carefully. Which makes it all the more grim that she has several times compared women here to men elsewhere and tried to guilt trip the female into being more maternal and gentle.

I have never seen her do that to males who id as trans btw. She is usually apologetic with them rather than demanding, which is revealing.

I have never seen her do that to males who id as trans btw. She is usually apologetic with them rather than demanding, which is revealing.

Yes.

Good post Joan

It’s a shame that there isn’t even the slightest chance of Laurie ever coming back to answer Joan’s post because I would be very interested in the response.

Q Is it inaccurate to say that the surgical removal of a penis = castration?

"Apparently gender-crit women are a cult who don't tolerate dissent."

Ahahahaahahahahahahaha the projection.

It's as if everything the other side points out about them, they turn around. Like little kids.

• "You're stupid"
• "No you are"
• "No you

..........

JoanSummers

Excellent post. From you and others. Please do not worry about being succinct when you are analysing language, as well as content. There is no other way to do it other than step-by-step.

And, as always, remember the lurkers. Remember exactly how many people are reading this. The people writing here are a fraction of the number of people accessing it.

There so many times when women react to language and tone and are berated for it, because the poster fondly imagines their attitide isn't startlingly apparent or is somehow well disguised.

I, for one, was both interested in, and appreciative of, your analysis there.

Absolutely Datun

People are catching up on this and it takes that kind of post to help people break it down.

It's helped me to be able to talk to other women IRL for the first time too. So thank you

It would be lovely if penny came back and engaged with the points made.

I don't think she can.