Laurie Penny's Mirror World

[ArcheryAnnie]

Apparently gender-crit women are a cult who don't tolerate dissent.

Laurie, come over here and have a quick look through the threads. Then have a look at your own lot.

Then tell me again who is "cult-like".

As far as Joan’s comments above ^ I promise not to use anything said here for anything I’m writing without the explicit permission of everyone involved. I’m not doing this for a piece, although I am supposed to be writing one- frankly I started it a month ago and was meant to be putting across a more ‘balanced’ view and asking how we can resolve differences, but the level of vitriol and attacks I’ve seen have meant I’m almost too disturbed to do it. I’m not suggesting anyone here is involved in that, though I hope not.

Joan, I’m not going to respond to you because you’ve clearly no interest in arguing in good faith

Ooooh look, Penny has noticed that women like me down here in the dirt actually exist! Oh but look, there she goes again, holding her petticoats free of the mud.

But you're part right. I have no faith in you. And why should I? Who the fuck are you anyway? Just some posh kid who thinks they can civilise the common women.

Ugh. I'm out - you're sick and you make me sick. I hope women will forgive you when you reach your best before date, it's not far off now.

Take a look at that link, it's got a list of threads that I found useful and covers some issues that I have. We're not the bitter twisted hags that we are made out to be.

I’m not suggesting anyone here is involved in that, though I hope not.

How about seeing if the side you appear to favour are involved in bullying, attacking and threatening women?

I’m not au fait with the girl guiding discussion happening here- but in general I DO trust individual organisations to do the necessary checks and decide on a case by case basis who is suitable to work with children

This isn't the kind of approach a journalist should take: "It's a respectable organisation. I'm sure all will be fine."

I don’t think anyone’s a ‘bitter twisted hag’. What I see is a lot of angry

Some of the threads I had read before. The widows one I hadn’t. It’s really harrowing- a lot of abusive relationships there. I’m so sorry that this has been so many people’s experience with trans partners. I don’t think it’s the rule- I know many women who are in happy relationships with trans partners. I’ve had such relationships myself.

I can totally see that if your main personal experience of someone going through transition is lies, gaslighting and family breakdown then it could feel very hard to sympathise. I know of marriages and partnerships that have made it through the process, and others that haven’t, with no fault on either side.

In fact, initially part of the point of the GRA was- pre gay marriage- to make it possible for trans people who wanted to do so to stay married. Previously a change in gender would have invalidated those marriages.

Sorry that should have been ‘a lot of angry people who are already marginalised worried about threats to their identity and organising practices- and a few bad apples spreading misinformation.’

What about the Deptford tweets Laurie? Can someone link please? Am breastfeeding on phone.

Is there a way to hide this thread? It is unbearable, so patronising. She really thinks she knows things we don't and has looked at things more objectively and intellectually and empathically. All the things. Massive, massive superiority complex.

If I can't hide the thread I'll just go offline for a few days. But if it's possible to hide it that would be preferable. Thanks in advance for help offered.

I don’t know what the Deptford tweets are but will look that up.
I have to get back to my work now- 2 hour Skype meeting at 10pm yay- but will check back here in the morning.

I can leave if people want me to! No hard feelings.

"Bad apples"

I think we are being trolled. If so they have really got her voice down, hats off.

Joan, go to the thread header if you are on the app and swipe to the left, it will bring up the opportunity to hide it.

Found the hide thread option, peace out and good luck to those who will need it.

I would be concerned myself if the things being discussed here- lesbians being forced into having sex with anyone they don’t want to

its happening

This isn't the kind of approach a journalist should take: "It's a respectable organisation. I'm sure all will be fine."

Absolutely not. "Rotherham council is a respectable organisation. I'm sure all will be fine". "Save the Children is a respectable organisation, I'm sure all will be fine". I absolutely trust that their safeguarding works. No need to ask questions.

I hear this- and I’m mainly straight so I may be speaking from a position of ignorance here. But nobody should be pressuring ANYONE into sex for whatever reason. That’s not a trans issue, that’s a consent issue.

No, I don't want to stop you saying these things, Joan - so long as you do so in the knowledge that you're going to appear (in a misrepresented form) as villain of the piece in her next article.

We've had the "but intersex" non-seqitur many, many times on here. Many intersex people have gone on record as saying they object to having their medical history co-opted for political purposes. Yet still people do it. Furthermore we quite rightly (for reasons of medical confidentiality) do not know the details of Semenya's medical history. And in any case they're irrelevant because transwomen are not intersex, they are biologically male with all the advantages that a biologically male body confers in sport.

denial of the material basis of women’s oppression

It's happening: multiple examples. Start with Labour AWS.

attempts to prey on vulnerable women in safe spaces

It's happening: multiple examples
you could start with orisons

Careful! Don't be a bad apple.

And what is needed is a profound shakeup of the way that ALL institutions and organisations address assault, harassment and abuse of women and children. I fail to see how banning trans women will solve that problem. To me the problem is patriarchy, full stop, and a culture of complicity with abusers.

That’s not a trans issue, that’s a consent issue.

It's a male on female issue. Name the problem.

I’m glad you’ve come on and are reading.

One thing I would say though is this is not about any threat to identity.

None of us here want the ‘woman’ identity. We’ve had all the crap associated with ‘woman’ thrust on us because of our biological sex. None of us want it, we want the identity stuff attached to ‘woman’ to be erased from society because it is how our sexed bodies are oppressed.

All of us desperately need protection from sex based prejudice, discrimination, violence, harassment, abuse etc

Trans people have different needs. There may be a crossover on some issues but surely the answer cannot be to legally erase sex and replace it with gender identity.

absolutely trust that their safeguarding works. No need to ask questions.

To add: Because of course, safeguarding always works.

Oops thread moved on in the time it took me to to get DS settled again (he woke mid post!)