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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Has anyone else just discovered that they are a RadFem?

212 replies

loveyouradvice · 09/05/2018 15:17

I'd always thought of myself as a liberal feminist... yup, feminist to the core and ready to fight for women and girls where appropriate but not that knowledgeable - and happy to enjoy the fun of being a women (summer dresses, sexy flirting, beautiful bodies) while acknowledging the horrors (FGM, rape, systemic inequality)....

But who knew it.... It just takes the words Transwomen are men ... so very obvious to me on so many levels.... to turn me into a RadFem....

And I've moved from being happy to encounter the occasional Transwomen in the Ladies (in well-populated, chatty scenarios like clubs) ... treating us with respect and being treated with respect... to not wanting a Penis in any sex-segregated arena...to feel threatened by the incursion of men on "our" spaces....

to sleeping badly and wondering what kind of world we are developing for our DC where playing with the boundaries of gender stereotypes (like Boy George) is less acceptable and the blue/pink divide has become so much more entrenched and the almost automatic reaction to any gender dissatisfaction in the young is to explore whether they are trans, rather than their just questioning and exploring society and their role within it....

OP posts:
DioneTheDiabolist · 10/05/2018 13:34

Not MC, privileged or cossetted, I am a WC, middle aged liberal feminist. I can't get on board with dismantling the patriarchy as I have not yet heard a meaningful way of doing it. I will continue being a pragmatic, libfem.

Opheliah · 10/05/2018 14:16

But radical feminism seems to say being involved IVF etc at all is unfeminist

I haven't come across this pov, is this true?

I understand the view that surrogacy is very bad, but assisted reproduction and ivf etc is fine in rad fem circles unless I missed something.

MillicentF · 10/05/2018 14:18

"But radical feminism seems to say being involved IVF etc at all is unfeminist" I haven't heard this either-and I can't think why that would be. Have you got a reference?

Opheliah · 10/05/2018 14:21

Dione
I think you probably are a bit rad fem because at least you admit there is patriarchy in the first place.

Lots of liberal feminists don't actually think a patriarchy exists but women just need "more encouraging".

MillicentF · 10/05/2018 14:24

And it does seem a bit daft to embrace everything that liberal feminism does in the way of "sex positivity" just because you can't see a way of destroying the patriarchy. Neither can I, realistically. That make me a pragmatic radical feminist.

ProfessionalBarren · 10/05/2018 14:34

Re infertility/IVF It was work by Janice Raymond (women as wombs) that got my attention: janiceraymond.com/women-as-wombs/
It's possible she's at an extreme end though - I need to read much more about this.

Datun · 10/05/2018 15:16

Fascinating thread. One of the things about feminism that I absolutely love, and love saying, is that it is about women and for women.

There's just no comeback. I've had conversations with men I've encountered that start in with the 'but what about...?'

It's very satisfying to say nope...just women. Only women. For women. The end.

There is a purity to it that appeals to me.

I acquired late onset feminism. After a lifetime of recognising the dots, but just failing to connect them. The framework into which they slotted was tantalisingly out of my reach.

Then I discovered feminism and they positively hurtled into place, instantly, one after the other.

I think many women have the same experience. Which is why they suddenly feel as though they have been blind all this time. Misogyny hides in plain sight.

Then of course the female penises, cotton ceilings, AGP, and violent threats turned me into a radfem overnight.

The knowledge that this kind of, what I thought was underground, movement and opinion was thriving, and not just in the trans-ideology, made it perfectly obvious that the entire system is, if not rotten, then in dire need of an overhaul.

A phenomenon that I've noticed more and more is that almost any women who object to the trans-ideology then become instant feminists.

As a pp said, it's almost as though TRAs have managed, overnight, to comprehensively demonstrate to women why they need feminism, far more effectively than feminists have been able to do in decades.

I wonder if this will be recognised in future history lessons.

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2018 15:23

I wouldn't describe myself as rad fem tbh.

Just anti-bullshit.

I'm just so tired of political bull shit. Its everywhere.

RealityHasALiberalBias · 10/05/2018 15:35

Yes RedToothBrush, the same kind of MO of the TRAs has pervaded all areas of politics. It's the individualistic, extremist, dogmatic positions of everyone from Trump to Corbyn.

No-one wants to have a conversation, they just want a soap box.

RatRolyPoly · 10/05/2018 15:59

Fascinating thread. One of the things about feminism that I absolutely love, and love saying, is that it is about women and for women.

I intend to catch up on the thread later, but I'm sure I will find it fascinating!

I think of myself as a patriarchy-dismantling liberal feminist... liberal in that the way I think I can best contribute to that dismantling is through working within the current system to push legislative changes that promote women to a place of parity, and recentre the effects of those structures to redress the balance in favour of women and others disadvantaged by the patriarchy; so I'm an intersectional feminist too.

That's not to say I don't perform class analyses - I don't think that's the preserve of radical feminists - I just think the solution is not to tear down the existing structures, mostly because I think there isn't a cat in hell's chance of that happening, so it's labouring for a hopeless cause!

Regarding "about women, for women", to me I want the net effect of my efforts to be to the advantage of women. But when I look at the overall picture there are many ways that the patriarchy is more easily influenced by men - I mean of course it is - they built the bloody thing. So part of my feminism is to undertake to oblige men to fix their own problems, problems that affect them too (because men also suffer under the patriarchy), and that if they can't or won't do that I will bloody well make them; and if I can't make them I will help them. I know that's anathema to some feminists, but to me if women win I'm going there.

So if a radical restructuring won't happen, and the men currently have the lion's share of the power, I have to take a holistic approach to dismantling the patriarchy; because it's here, but I want it to crumble for the good of the women it fails to serve.

Loandbeholdagain · 10/05/2018 19:13

Can someone tell me what kind of feminist I am?!
-believe that trans is ultimately societial gender stereotypes being medically enforced. Women and men should feel free to express and dress whatever they want and love whoever they want but are still male if they have a male body and female is they have a female body.

  • Am against prostitution and porn (except the written kind)
  • think it’s suspicious how all well paid jobs are in traditionally male exploits and poorly paid jobs are traditionally female. Think it’s a disgrace that mums who would like to spend more time with their babies are forced into going back to work or lose their jobs, that career gaps are often career suicide and
that care in general is so low status.

What does that make me?

NameChange30 · 10/05/2018 20:04

Fascinating thread.

I’ve never really thought about defining what kind of feminist I am. I suppose most of us don’t really fit neatly into one box in terms of the views we have on different issues.

But the one objection I have is that our opinion on the trans debate should dictate what type of feminist we are. Obviously it’s a key debate atm. But if we define ourselves according to the trans debate, arguably that could imply that we are defining ourselves in relation to men (if that’s what you believe trans women are).

If I’m a radfem it’s because of my position on various key issues and not just the trans debate.

TalkingintheDark · 10/05/2018 20:14

Love this thread. So good to see so many women thinking along the same/similar lines as me in a world that otherwise seems to have gone completely batshit.

I’ve always identified as a feminist but after being quite active in my younger days kind of stepped back from it all, and had no idea this schism was developing. I don’t think I ever rightly understood what radfem meant, probably made the same false assumption as many others that “radical” meant extreme rather than from the root.

Found MN as a very late in life mother, and one day about two or three years ago came across a trans thread in AIBU. Literally couldn’t believe what I was reading; went off and googled everything and found out it was all true. There is indeed a law that allows people to be issued with a new birth certificate with a big fat lie on it. The cotton ceiling. Transing of kids. The fact that most TIMs don’t have “bottom surgery” and the concept of the “female penis”; the erosion of sex segregated spaces (including Kimberly Nixon’s war of attrition against Vancouver Rape Relief).

And eventually I realised the word “woman” has been hijacked to mean... absolutely nothing at all, any more; and there is no longer a single, unifying word that denotes all those born female, and only those. And it was like the world I thought I knew disappeared overnight and I really didn’t like the new one I was confronted with.

It was just a gigantic multiple peak trans all at once. I never bought into any of it at all, although I have seriously reflected on the issues raised and tried to see if I can find anything that rings true in TRA ideology, just in the interests of not being closed minded. (Answer: no)

I was definitely gender critical from then on but I wasn’t sure if I identified as radfem exactly. Then one day recently I was thinking about how whatever women do to stand up for our rights, men/men under patriarchy find a new way to beat us back down, and of course transactivism is just the latest instalment in a very long history of that. It really became obvious that the problem is a fundamental view of women as other/lesser that is SO ingrained and part of our collective unconscious that most people don’t even realise it’s there, most of the time. And that unless that is addressed, patriarchy is just going to find new ways to oppress women, and we’re still going to be in the shit however many years hence.

So I realised that I must be a radfem after all.

Wrt to how we actually implement this change/tackle misogyny at its root, I think we have to address the unconscious aspect of it as that’s where so much of the problem is. All these brocialists, they honestly don’t realise that they see women as lesser, or by how much, I don’t think. And the catch 22 is that their unconscious miosgyny prevents them from hearing from us that they are part of the problem as of course we don’t merit listening to. But it needs to start with us, with a return to consciousness raising, for us, and with the way we raise the next generation, the awareness we give them, girls and boys.

Women getting together and talking, sharing experiences, learning from each other. Like we do on here; and in RL. Women writing, using all available spaces and outlets to spread our ideas around. That’s the first step. And in that respect I agree with others that transactivism actually has the potential to rejuvenate feminism, in the way it’s made so many of us see so clearly just HOW misogynist the world still is, and made us so determined to fight that.

Branleuse · 10/05/2018 20:36

I was libfem up to a couple of years ago. I think I got called a terf and quite laid into by some activists on a trans friends fb (TIF) and the more I looked into it, the more i realised - damn right. I cant even BELIEVE this self ID bullshit. You have to be pretty fucking stupid to not see the unintended consequences of this proposal, however well meaning.

esk1mo · 10/05/2018 20:41

i was on twitter, looking at someones page who i know talks about TERFs and she reposted this

mobile.twitter.com/shonfaye/status/994582360355229697

not particularly sure i understand the thread, but im getting there

moofolk · 10/05/2018 21:29

Not as recently but I realised I had accidentally become a radical feminist by maintaining actual feminist ideals whilst the scourge of neoliberalism ate away at everything around me to create a slew of people who thought they were edgy who were also taking their clothes off as a form of (empowering) entertainment and had a startling lack of class analysis.

A good friend pointed me to Lierre Keith and Gail Dines, and the idea that she had 'become radfem by standing still' (I know you're here somewhere, say hi!), and that was me radicalised. Or that and my 37-year-old ex boyfriend saying that now he was 'a girl' he 'had to' shave his legs. No.

Welcome! @loveyouradvice

moofolk · 10/05/2018 21:30

Also it comes with age, wisdom and impatience.

TheMythOfFingerprints · 10/05/2018 21:40

Not just but fairly recently in the scheme of things.

I had kind of avoided because of the word "radical" which is ironic, because what the fucking fuck is radical about believing that women don't have penises?!

TheClitterati · 10/05/2018 21:46

This thread makes me want to cry with happiness.

I often feel so alone in feminism and in the world. I want to be super radical and active and fighting, and yet all my energy is taken up being a full time Working single parent of 2 girls. I do the little I can.

And I've been a radfem for years. I started out radfem, went a bit woo liberal for a while in the middle there Blush, and straight back to being radical post children.

I 💚💜💚💜 you all and this thread makes me feel so happy and not alone.

[i do love a bit of PIV sex though - but that seems quite acceptable even for radfems these days GrinGrin)

LaSqrrl · 10/05/2018 22:00

(including Kimberly Nixon’s war of attrition against Vancouver Rape Relief)

A great way to summarise it, Talking. War of attrition, indeed it was. But what set the whole thing off, was that Nixon would not take 'no' for an answer. It was VRR's standard policy that there was a two-year gap between being a client, and being trained to be a counsellor, you know, the rule for ALL WOMEN. But no, Nixon decided 'they' wanted to after 12-18 months. Frankly, to almost financially ruin an organisation like that, shows that the person is not suitable to work there. VRR always took trans as clients (hence Nixon was a client), but that fight made them dig in their heels and no accept trans as counsellors (way to go, with an own goal there Nixon). To this day, they will still take on trans as clients. But still get protested by the TRAs and handmaidens as to how 'transphobic' they are. WTAF.

Nixon v VRR can be summarised:
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.

thebewilderness · 10/05/2018 22:07

I remember that first time I asked what it meant to be a Radical Feminist instead of a plain old women's libber like myself and they said it meant examining the root causes of women's oppression, it made a tiny little shift in what I heard from that moment on when someone called someone else a "radical".

LaSqrrl · 10/05/2018 22:08

As for my personal path, I had no idea that I was a radfem until a bunch of online radfems called me one! Prior to that, I just thought I was 'a feminist'.

I had come to all the RF positions on my own, very unread really (and still so). I just started by questioning everything around me, usually a "How come..." And I clearly had the so-called 'humourless' part down well - when I was about 22, friends took me to a drag show. I saw nothing funny in the whole thing, and came away from it thinking "this is mocking women somehow, and not funny at all" just without the full vocabulary to describe why.

But I actually do have a sense of humour, I just don't find mocking the entire class of persons I belong to as funny. Womanface = blackface. Not funny, knock it off.

SupermatchGame · 10/05/2018 22:11

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Ereshkigal · 10/05/2018 22:20

Lol. Yes because radical feminism is exactly like the far right.

Ereshkigal · 10/05/2018 22:22

What's your radfem moment, SMG? Have you come to share the reasons you became aware of sex based oppression and the best approach to understanding it?