Hi Mumsnet, if you are asking feminist women to consider whether Mumsnet is for them, please be clear that the space *we* made here is for *all* of us.

[leyat]

So apparently MNHQ is asking women they are suspending for saying things like men are men, to consider whether Mumsnet is for them.

I feel it's important to be clear that we want feminist women to have a home here, we - all the women who engage here - have made this board what it is (I'm relatively new so I am in awe of the women who have been shaping this wonderful space all this time) and we don't want women excluded from this space because they won't lie about biology and acquiesce to misogyny and genderism.

This is meant to be a kind of refuge for us, where we do not have to submit to male authority, where we can let off steam and share without needing to worry about dealing with misogyny, and where we can feel a degree of safety and find sisterhood. I can't think of anything more awful than a woman who comes here to share in this, in this one space we have that's meant to be ours, to then be told she should consider excluding herself because she won't bow to male authority on what a woman is.

So it needs saying, Mumsnet, this is a board for all feminist women, we don't want anyone excluded or made to feel that this space isn't for them too. And please understand many women come here from backgrounds of abuse, we do live in a climate of male violence and misogyny that is currently getting worse, so I hope MNHQ take time to ask themselves how they want to treat women who come here. Mumsnet own the site, but it's the women who use this space who made it the vibrant refuge of sisterhood and resistance that it is, so please don't shit on that or indeed on the women who actually engage on your forum.

AAK is doing nothing wrong at all in referring to 'Cluster B' disorders. That many women have been misdiagnosed by a sexist institution does not mean that a disorder itself does not exist, or that people who have been abused by other people with these disorders shouldn't name it :/

This is a diversion from the thread so I'll stop but I wanted to say that I don't agree with MissMoneyPlant on this issue, and it worries me that someone is speaking on behalf of all of us in this boat to silence another woman speaking about abuse. I think MMP you need to take a step back tbh.

This

Mums net is HUGE
If a few hundred feminists leave it wouldn’t even be a ripple
Sadly there is no bargaining power here really

Just wondering...if MN are bowing to TRA pressure because TRAs are threatening to boycott advertisers...well. We are the target market, and there's probably more of us than there is of them, right?

Is a counter-boycott a thing?

@Notthatwomanagain I'm not sure, the feminist boards were apparently worth Justine defending them in The Times a few weeks back. Who knows though.

Oh. That's a weird post sequence.

But I was abused too, and my abuser was assisted by psychiatry to gaslight me. Why can't I speak up about my abuse?

You seem to be missing the point. AAK was lumping in those labelled BPD with those narcissists including her abuser. That is not ok. She is rightly calling out narcissists behaviour, but instead of saying narcissist, she used a term that encompasses their victims too. Can't you see that's not ok?

Well said OP. Please don't leave the site entirely - I understand why people may want to but at least lurk as, at present at least, it is an important place for women to talk. If it comes to it we can regroup somewhere else (Reddit??) but I can't believe that Mumsnet will cave to these ridiculous demands from those who are scared of free speech.

There are so many women out there struggling with the legacy of abuse from men, and you all can just turn your backs and label them mental. Well done.

Sadly there is no bargaining power here really

Well there is some, at the moment for the most part we stay contained in FWR. If FWR goes the discussion won't go away, it will move to more mainstream parts of the board.

Of course MN can delete any feminist threads started but eventually it will sink in with the majority of users that any attempts to discuss women's rights or women's biology on a majority female site is being silenced.

That won't go over well and there will be journalists that are interested in the story angle.

I haven't rtft

Mumsnet is a community which has a strong culture and although FWR is just a supposedly tiny part of it, it is an active, significant part.

Previously MRAs took exception to the relationships board, as well as FWR and apparently the Special Needs board was subjected to horrendous trolling as has since gone pretty quiet- FWR is similarly in danger now.

It is a fair point to remember that clever opinionated women largely define the culture of MN and a disproportionate number of clever opinionated women also call themselves feminist. So FWR is important in contributing to this site's distinct character.

Every one of us who have not put on an ad blocker are in some way 'paying' to use MN and every one of us who posts is generating content and traffic to MN for free.

The relationship between MN and us users is symbiotic.

If Mumsnet loses its opinionated feminists, it loses its character and that is a huge loss for everyone- contributors, lurkers, advertisers alike.

twitter.com/justwoodall/status/991803265804365824

LOL. Maybe MNHQ should talk to stonewall.

Sorry I am swinging between finding this all amusing and infuriating. HQ seem to be capitulating to narcissistic male people who find the idea of female people discussing female issues transphobic. This will not stop with FWR, no way. Pregnancy campaigns and such would be next, as 'men can get pregnant too' and so on. I do wonder why the focus is not on the many many places on the web that actually do spout vile transphobia regularly. But no, lets stalk mumsnet, as its a female dominated space. Who cares about male people being transphobic AND ACTUALLY ATTACKING TRANSPEOPLE. Even when men do attack transpeople, its the fault of 'TERFs' for fucks sake..

I've been here in one incarnation or another for 10+ years. Many of the women who make this board what it is have been here even longer and their presence permeates across the boards: they provided robust relationship advice, weigh in on complex legal issues, give their detailed thoughts on BF and weaning. They are sharp and witty, making me laugh in AIBU and provide cheer and company in chat. They help navigate skincare choices and support us through difficult decisions relating education and hold hands through traumatic ones relating to healthcare. They recommend fabulous films and detail daring recipes and have an opinion on everything.

We are more than the sum of our parts.

Of course if we leave we'll be replaced but MN absolutely will be a worse place for it.

MMP - I disagree that AAK was lumping in people in the way that you think she was. I'd like to point out to you please that AAK was herself discussing her experience of abuse by a man, and I am trying to explain to you that like you I also have struggled under sexist misdiagnosis by a man working in a male dominated profession. This isn't a simple situation to navigate but I do wholeheartedly believe that AAK was in no way referring to women misdiagnosed as BPD when she referred to abusive men with Cluster B disorders. I think you are reading something there which is not there and while I do empathise with you I would still ask you not to shut down women talking about their experiences of abuse in the name of standing up for women like me (us). We are not of the same mind in this.

@OvaHere Thu 03-May-18 13:08:18
"Sadly there is no bargaining power here really

Well there is some, at the moment for the most part we stay contained in FWR. If FWR goes the discussion won't go away, it will move to more mainstream parts of the board."

I agree with this completely. I'm not going anywhere, my response to TA's targeting Mumsnet trying to silence us is to make sure I post here even more. I have never posted as much since I joined as I have the last two days, and that is completely down to the fact they are attacking the platform, this board, and the feminist women who engage here.

TA's want us to leave, MNHQ hopefully don't and will hopefully do better in dealing with this and reassert their commitment to free speech. But as you say Ovahere, even if MNHQ completely capitulated and deleted this board, I would be very upset and do all I could to raise the issue (and the optics would be that they had been harassed by TA's to do so, so not a good look for their movement) but I would stay, for many of the reasons I have in my post - we need to fight our ground not give it up.

We can discuss issues elsewhere in Talk, feminism chat would just disperse across the site and actually that might involve even more women as a result (although I definitely want to retain our distinct space for it and I think most MN users would prefer that).

In other words, even if we have to stop using correct pronouns (of course we don't need to use preferred pronouns either) and even if we lost this board, we can still be here, discussing all of this, as long as Mumsnet doesn't ban feminist talk of any kind on any board, which of course would be unthinkable, I mean, how would you even do that and how could it be defended....

So I really hope women don't go anywhere, we make this space what it is, as long as Mumsnet is around so can we be....

Reading the mumsnet twitter account is enlightening. They are responding to the harassment with appeasement rather than ignoring or muting. I wonder why?

Who the hell is running their twitter account? Not another fucking intern?

I think the twitter account may be a pragmatic response. There is always a bigger picture!

Who the hell is running their twitter account? Not another fucking intern?

I did wonder if Emma still has the login password..

I'd like to know who is running the twitter account too, the way this is being dealt with is far outside of reasonable.

There is always a bigger picture!

My hope is that it is: - show us some actual transphobia then.

But then deleting for correctly sexing ...

Whoever has started that Twitter account screenshotting posts allegedly displaying transphobia on mumsnet has an odd definition of transphobia.

They screenshot one of my posts containing nothing but facts about Jazz and the Jazz Jennings TV show.

In response to someone asking how can you say xyz about Jazz Jennings I replied by explaining about the TV show and what the show has told us about the effects of puberty blockers on Jazz. I neither deadnamed nor misgendered the child. I didn't speculate or insinuate anything. Just facts made entirely public by Jazz, Jazz's parents and Jazz's doctors.

Given all of the above, the only thing they can be objecting to is that I said that women are concerned about these children because despite early affirmation and medically transitioning, Jazz is clinically depressed and has not developed any sexual function at all (which is of course not a desirable outcome).

Being concerned about the welfare of children subjected to a new and untested treatment regimen is transphobic now?

When all the parents here were pushed into vaccinating their children against swine flu, I decided against it, after properly looking into the efficacy of the vaccine vs the possibility of vaccine damage. Despite deciding not to vaccinate my older DC, I briefly considered having my preschooler vaccinated after the GP and the school urged me to do so. However, once I found out that the vaccine used for the under 4s in the UK was explicitly disallowed for this purpose elsewhere in the EU, I declined.

As a result of the vaccine hundreds of children were severely disabled across Europe, including one of my son's classmates.

There have been no real consequences for the pharma industry selling the vaccine despite knowing of this possibility. Or for the Department of Health pushing the vaccine who also knew and didn't advise the parents. There won't be. Just as there won't be for damage to the children given supposedly harmless puberty blockers.

The only way we can protect children from iatrogenic harm is to speak up when we are worried. To raise our concerns. To ask for caution.

Now with the swine flu that was almost impossible - it was an acute situation, presented as an emergency and things moved far too fast for proper scrutiny to be given. But these puberty blockers are an ongoing issue. We have that time and we should take it to demand proper scrutiny before more children are damaged.

And I stand by that. If warning about iatrogenic harm to children from an untested treatment is transphobic, then I'll wear that label. But I won't shut up about it.

What sets Mumsnet apart from other fora is the level of articulation, specialised knowledge in so many areas - medical, legal, academic, educational etc. Those people who are willing to share their knowledge and wisdom with others across the whole of the board. And also the people who offer such incredible emotional support to those suffering in abusive relationships. It's an amazing and unique space and it centres women

Please @Mumsnet do not dilute free speech or the standard of debate within FWR. Yes, it's robust at times, and you get the odd nob, but it's pretty much critical thinking at it's finest. It would also be completely contrary to the assertion Justine made so recently in the press.

I agree that if FWR goes those wishing to close down critical thought and free speech will move to other topics like AIBU, Parenting or even Pregnancy.

You can see why I rarely post here (#inarticulate) but I read, I take it in, I share it with my family and friends. I want to very sincerely thank those like Datun , AAK , AssingedPuuurfect , RedToothBrush and all of the very learned feminists, and feminist supporters who take the time to engage in important debates about all aspects of feminism

For me FWR is one of the corner stones of MN. At times it’s honestly made me take the misogynistic rose tinted specs off. If the prominent voices leave it will be a sad day for MN.

I just don’t believe (maybe hopeful thinking) that MNHQ are bowing down to pressure - hopefully more like a temporary measure till they find their legal arse covering stance.

The Twitter moderating it’s a proper brain fart though and hopefully it will be reversed as it’s fucking insane.

The general public just don’t know about the real problems the trans movement is causing. After speaking to my 85 year old granny this morning about trans women taking female jobs she replied with ‘ah but they have allways felt like a lady’ she was shocked when I told her self I’d would entitle them to do..

The Twitter moderating it’s a proper brain fart though and hopefully it will be reversed as it’s fucking insane.

I am a bit worried that the twitter reporting idea has been introduced as a way for MN to say 'its not worth the effort we have to put in moderating the topic' tbh. I know that sounds really conspiracy like, but they have to know they will be piled on with reports from transactivists, given even talking about anything to do with female biology is considered transphobic!

Not too long ago, HQ mentioned that the amount of reports was ridiculous and that we should basically self moderate. And now this open invitiation to TRAs to spam MN with reports.

I hope I am wrong. But honestly, nothing else makes sense to me. I can understand them wanting to bow out, afterall this is one of the only spaces that actually allow discussion on the topic and they will come in for some shit because of that. Hell talking about it all on twitter has got me death threats, rape threats,n threats against my family, and even a visit from the police. So to be the ones facilitiating other women talking freely on the topic, the abuse will be much much worse and I dread to think. When Milwall say they have never seen anything like it, MPs say the same and so on, it has to be bad. I expect the abuse against HQ will be even worse, as the founder is female. and its females who get the worst of it from TRAs. Hence the attack on MN, and not any of the other male dominated spaces where actual transphobia is so rampant. Women on twitter saying anything vaguely GC are attacked, meanwhile men can use transphobic slurs and be absolutely awful about transpeople, and not a peep.

CharlieParley, it seems any mention of safeguarding at all is transphobic now. So obviously any mention at all of the treatment of children that isn't 100% positive, affirming and suicide-preventing is also transphobic.