Trans Media Watch has written to parliament saying 'trans identified male' can be considered as hate speech, and that Mumsnet users referring to penises are being transphobic.

[leyat]

Trans Media Watch appears to want the term 'trans identified male', or indeed referring to them as 'men' to be understood as hate speech and deems Mumsnet 'of particular concern'. This really has to be read to be believed; here is their written submission to the Home Affairs Committee: data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/home-affairs-committee/hate-crime-and-its-violent-consequences/written/82105.pdf. It is quite the collection of lies and misrepresentations designed to completely malign women, the only good thing about it is that it is so obviously one-sided that most rational people would see that.

Worth sharing this article on how the committee has been approaching the matter, and how at least some MP's want women silenced: blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

Keep resisting!

I am a human being who transitioned to relieve chronic gender dysphoria

Yes. Or, indeed, 'present as female/ present as a woman to relieve chronic gender dysphoria' makes sense to me. It's an absolute bugger if ordinary people are now starting to feel that concessions to language to help relieve dysphoria need to be reined back because of the TRA twats.

(I'm assuming you're Debbie H - read and appreciated some of your articles if so, and I hope you'll think about forwarding them to those involved in this in Parliament.)

Out of interest is every biology teacher in every school now transphobic for teaching ... biology?

How does that work? There is no such thing as a 'sex change' - it isn't possible so speaking about biological sex can only be done in one way. So are they transphobes for teaching biology?

I know this could be seen as me being snide or sneery, but it is, in fact, a genuine question because if we cannot label someone with a penis as male or define a male body (which has benefited from all the male hormones and growth) as male then how can biology be reasonably taught?

Are there really going to have to be caveats in biology lessons, 'er yes some people produce eggs which can be fertilised but they can be male or female. What's that? How can you tell? You can't. And don't ask either - that might get you in trouble.'

It is so clear from this document they are targeting women predominantly. I think we all know (to our cost) that the internet is a very male dominated domain, one only has to look at the likes of 4chan, Kiwifarms and Reddit for what is the dominant culture. In those places men speak with impunity on trans matters and are often quite brutal with words - far more so than Mumsnet. Yet Mumsnet women are the ones being targeted. Perhaps the Government would like to look at policing the whole internet for 'hate' (they will need teams of many, many people). If they can manage that I'll be ecstatic - perhaps they could then crack down on all the violent misogynistic porn, all the grooming, the hentai perhaps?? It's out of control out there, the misogyny. If they can police Mumsnet they will need to police the rest of the net and if they can do that then perhaps they can sort out the shit heap men have made of cyber space as well as the real world.

I'm not actually advocating that they police the net - I believe in free speech - that doesn't extend to porn because it causes physical harm - but where does all this logically take us? Probably nowhere because only women have to shut their mouths eh?

If all that was a bit incoherent I'll admit its probably because I am furious.

Just to add on those forums such as Reddit and 4chan they also speak with impunity about hating women so trans people aren't alone in being villified by men on those sites.

dammit, spelt vilified incorrectly. I am a pedant so I have to point this out.

Much prefer the more neutral term, transsexual person, with maybe an XY added where needed for clarification.

I try to use transsexual where possible, Debbie, because I understand that TIM is uncomfortable to hear. But it also has its problems because it's not an appropriate term for someone who has not physically transitioned, is it? And so how can we apply it without accusations of genital obsession and all the rest of it?

I'll use any neutral term that avoids offence - providing it does not appropriate my language for myself. Woman in any form, with or without spaces, is off the table for me.

Kitty: yes there are some people teaching reproduction without using male or female.

Agree with LangCleg and understand what you are saying DebbieinBirmingham

I think we all know (to our cost) that the internet is a very male dominated domain, one only has to look at the likes of 4chan, Kiwifarms and Reddit for what is the dominant culture. In those places men speak with impunity on trans matters and are often quite brutal with words - far more so than Mumsnet

This is so true! Also I think 'quite brutal with words' is a vast understatement.

Yet the target is trying to make a woman saying she wants to retain the right to be in a penis free space. And attempting to frame that as 'hate speech'. Trying to do that is far more likely to fuel transphobia, particularly in less tolerant pockets of society, than engaging with discussions and addressing women's concerns.

I am grateful to all those from the trans community who are engaging and discussing.

I'll use any neutral term that avoids offence - providing it does not appropriate my language for myself. Woman in any form, with or without spaces, is off the table for me.

Cosign with *LangCleg's words above.

And

Kitty: yes there are some people teaching reproduction without using male or female.

Thank you Pratchet I guess we are all going insane then.

This is so true! Also I think 'quite brutal with words' is a vast understatement.

It was a bit of an understatement wasn't it?

Dj you're not the only one - I waver too. I don't want people to be uncomfortable and if I can ease pain then of course I want to. Then I remember some of the people and their actions and I remember that I'm lucky - I've never been assaulted etc so will not have all the same fears- and I remember why I am campaigning against self id and not capitulating to gender neutral everything demands. Because I am in a position to campaign and there are a hell of a lot of women and children who will be terribly affected by this and can't.

I see it as my duty. I will still be kind to individuals but I will not support hurting women.

Trans Media Watch appears to want the term 'trans identified male', or indeed referring to them as 'men' to be understood as hate speech

DARVO. Pure and simple.

Sorry, guys, Mother Nature will always be the ultimate TERF.

Not that I would ever suggest backing down, rather, hold our ground. The alternative is to call them 'prostate-havers' - because no matter how much or how little surgery they have, they all keep it.

A dear friend of mine said to me, many years ago "never relinquish the word woman". She was so right. Because it never stops, the list of 'forbidden words' or 'stolen words', and always keeps us on the back foot.

Anyway, 'helpfully' suggest to the HAC, that they just deem women to all be in perpetual transphobia, by existing, and be done with it. Otherwise we shall be in this back and forth for decades. Perhaps it is even my new screen name 'perpetual transphobia'. I am, just by the mere fact as 'existing while female'.

Kitty: yes there are some people teaching reproduction without using male or female.

So, children, when a person meets a person that they like very much...well, hard to tell whether or not that might result in a baby really. Probably best not to ask lest you offend.

I'm a science teacher. I don't teach creationism or flat earth theory. Similarly I won't teach that male and female are anythinges other than the two sex classes that are fundamental to sexual reproduction. As a father of three (and I've assumed that dads are welcome in here as well as mums) I know which sex class I belong to.

I am, just by the mere fact as 'existing while female

Original Sin, 2018 version :(

I wish you'd been here for the thread we had the other day with the supposed biology teacher who was going on about epigenetics! It was quite something.

I'm a science teacher. I don't teach creationism or flat earth theory. Similarly I won't teach that male and female are anythinges other than the two sex classes that are fundamental to sexual reproduction. As a father of three (and I've assumed that dads are welcome in here as well as mums) I know which sex class I belong to.

Everyone is welcome - lots of people here don't have any children.

I am glad you are teaching the science properly but what happens when stating biology is classed as 'hate speech' as some of this document sets out? Also teaching it any other way makes it somewhat confusing to the children - some more than others, I would expect.

I wish you'd been here for the thread we had the other day with the supposed biology teacher who was going on about epigenetics! It was quite something.

I missed that. Probably for the best. I'm sure my blood pressure keeps rising dangerously.

I'm a science teacher. I don't teach creationism or flat earth theory. Similarly I won't teach that male and female are anythinges other than the two sex classes that are fundamental to sexual reproduction.

Cheers loudly for Debbie.

what happens when stating biology is classed as 'hate speech as some of this document sets out?

Kitty would the suggestions actually make teaching biology hate speech?

Steven Doughty has swallowed this hook line cock ball and sinker.
He suggested The Times , Janice Turner I believe , was propagating hate speech. Chilling is an understatement.

Makes you wonder whats coming next from him

It needs to be made very simple for some people:

If a man can become a woman just because they say they are a woman then the words man and woman mean no more than an expression of feelings. Do you believe this? Really believe it? and continue to believe it when you are at work, at home with your family, out with your friends, and when you are seeking a life partner?

I'm TS and I don't believe it. I tried, but eventually the illusion collapsed and it was then that I had to transition my body. If I have any claim to womanhood (and that's controversial in these parts) then my case relies on sex characteristics and hormones, not feelings.