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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ Deletion Policy

935 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 17:03

Earlier today the Trans Park Run thread was deleted in its entirety because SOME posts alleging cheating were deemed to be 'not in the spirit' of MN.

We have a thread about that running.

I have just been deleted on the Heather Peto thread for posting this:

"Bless..."

A post intended to be mildly dismissive.

That was deleted for breaking talk guidelines.

Give me a fucking break MNHQ.

"Bless..." gets a deletion!??!?!

TRA really have got you on a short chain, haven't they?

OP posts:
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5
AngryAttackKittens · 01/05/2018 09:49

If a person find themselves communicating entirely in cliches like "right side of history" then maybe it's because they don't have any actual arguments.

RedToothBrush · 01/05/2018 09:50

So for deletion policy and purpose, MN are not caught between a rock and a hard place at all.

They will try and take over MN if the line is not held. It will be feminism first. The childbirth and pregnancy. Then something else. Then something else.

When FB groups about PCOS etc are being deliberately targeted by TRAs in the name of an imaginary transman (noting the imaginary rape accusations this week) there is no other conclusion you can draw. The offence being caused that does not even exist.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 09:53

As @thebewilderness said on a different thread, it is a male dominance display.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/05/2018 09:56

Why’s Datun not PM yet?

Too much sense to apply for the job.

TeamOrders · 01/05/2018 09:56

What I see happening is that posters respond to a person on the basis of their behaviour rather than identity. If they feel threatened or silenced there lean towards disrespect and calling someone male because they feel they have been disrespect. If they feel their biological barriers are being belittled and ignored they err towards belittling and not knowledging others concerns

Exactly. So someone appearing here with an inflammatory username who then posts in a dictatorial style using repeated full stops, and makes deliberately goady statements about a male person's 'womanliness' is likely to be here to cause trouble rather than to engage in respectful debate. And responses will reflect that.

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 10:09
Smile

One of the most wonderful tweets I saw KIS make on twitter was exactly about the subject of misgendering - someone said something like "I agree with you, but you must call transwomen women."

It was:

"I am not going to participate in and/or help spread that mass gaslighting.
One of feminism’s key tenets is women’s right to say no.
We have the right to identify, name and desist malestream ideology and language."

And this is exactly the point - women have the right to say NO to this crap, this policing of our language, this mass gaslighting and erosion of women's boundaries and privacy.

I want female spaces for me, for my DD, for any woman that wants them - and want them on the basis of being born female. Biologically female. I want my daughter to have access to sports, scholarships or whatever, that have been set aside for women - and not have her place taken by someone born and raised male - but identifies as female. Like THIS

And now it seems MN is contributing to the mass gaslighting of women that is part and parcel of this new gender identity religion - and actually silencing us - to appease some of the most misogynistic, aggressive, men's rights activists.

And Red is right - the've come for feminism first, then it will move onto childbirth, pregnancy and so on. It's happening in the NHS right now. The word "mother" is even under attack. This is an attack on women, and on this (predominantly) women's forum.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 10:13

Too much sense to apply for the job.

Yes!

TerfinUSA · 01/05/2018 10:13

Have we had any kind of clarification on what 'no attacks on individuals' actually means, in terms of discussing people on here?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/05/2018 10:13

I'm not reading 29 pages - is the gist of what is happening that TRAs (is there a better term to use, much like 'forced birther' for those otherwise known as right-to-lifers'?) are coming on here, like they always have, but in a more sustained fashion, and making the same kind of accusations they always have, but also posting deliberately goady threads and/or responses and/or reports posts (hell they could be reporting each others' posts) in the hope of creating so much ruckus that HQ deletes the thread - hence silencing women?

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 01/05/2018 10:19

Yet
Mass reporting, troll posting, posting obnoxious material then screenshotting it and putting it on twitter, MN being heavy handed with deletions.

To be fair, we have been here before. I daresay that MN had another blow to the stomach yesterday with the former employee trashing MN in an 'article' and reacted to it. As did the users. It's a shame.

ScarletBegonias · 01/05/2018 10:20

CoteDAzur

For the record, there is no other way to be male or female but biologically. These are biological terms, not psychological ones.

So, "They are female but not biologically" would be nonsense. It would also show profound ignorance about both biology and the English language.

As I understand it, the law says that males can be females legally even if not biologically. Section 9(1) of the Gender Recognition Act 2004 - which unhelpfully muddles up 'gender' and 'sex' - says that when a gender recognition certificate has been issued "the person's gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender."

I think it wouldn't have been so bad if it had stopped there - but it goes on to say "(if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person's sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person's sex becomes that of a woman)".

As Cote says, this is a nonsense. So the GRA could usefully be amended - or possibly scrapped - couldn't it?

Apologies if this point has been made earlier in the thread - but I'm having trouble keeping up. (And should be working Smile).

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/05/2018 10:23

Mass reporting, troll posting, posting obnoxious material

There is weirdness elsewhere too with odd misogynist or 'tell me your masturbation stories' posts popping up all over the place.

Funny that.

changeypants · 01/05/2018 10:48

It's gone well beyond feminism already. You'd be amazed at the number of small niche charities set up for specifically female concerns that now explicitly state their trans woman (not just trans) inclusive policies. I don't think it's helpful to sign post them here - I feel sorry for the people running those charities.

KittyKlaws · 01/05/2018 10:55

It's taken me an age to get through this thread - all this happened while I was working!

Some observations I hope no one leaves because of all this because it feels like bullies with malicious intentions get their way then, however, I completely understand the frustration posters are feeling because I feel it too. It's getting ridiculous, dictionary definitions of what a woman is (that absurd wikapedia page notwithstanding - and yes, the lack of a capital letter is deliberate), defining someone as 'male bodied' when they are, being deleted and even innocuous posts with mild mannered 'yawn's on them being called attacks or not in the spirit? Have you visited AIBU recently? I've had far worse said to me under previous user names on there.

While we are on the subject AIBU pisses me off almost daily - there is generally something said on there I strongly disagree with and even on occasion find insulting. I think I've reported twice; one obvious troll and one vicious attack (on another poster), otherwise, my discomfort isn't a reason to deny other people's right to be rude assholes and speak freely. I simply hide the threads if I am feeling too delicate to handle them because it's my problem.

I am furious that Redtoothbrush is feeling like abuse is repeated on her by allowing these attacks from outside Mumsnet to go unchallenged. She may not recognise me in my new username (post Emma data scandal) but I recognise her (online presence, nothing sinister) and the issues her family have had and she is one of us. Like many of us she comes here for support and to be heard not to be gaslighted into silence.

Also that bullshit above about what transphobia is and how it denies their existence; to say if someone is biologically male at birth they remain biologically male is not denying their fucking existence. If you acknowledge they are biologically male you, how the fuck are you denying they exist? Absolutely nonsensical. Biology matters - I'll be posting a thread on why it counts soon.

And finally, if we are now measuring what is womanly on how pretty a person is and who is jealous of them I just opt out. When I was in my late teens twenties, I'd say I was pretty - I certainly got enough attention. In my thirties I had my children, it altered my body affected already existing mental health problems and had a considerable effect (along with ageing) on my appearance. So ... I'm less 'womanly' now I've actually had children ... I guess ... although I always thought giving birth was a pretty womanly thing to do - not exclusively THE womanly thing to so as we all can't or don't want to have kids but y'know pretty up there. Now I'm older than that even and I'm invisible - now I know it is because I am not pretty anymore, not womanly. Exactly who is denying who's existence here? Older women = invisible and apparently no longer able to state facts openly either.

If there is an exodus here to Reddit GC I'll follow because talk, debate, support and the sheer relief of other women who see the gaslighting and understand is VITAL and it can't be effective when voices (even the ones we don't like) are silenced.

CoteDAzur · 01/05/2018 11:05

Scarlet - re "the law says that males can be females legally even if not biologically."

As has been mentioned before, what law decides to accept as not necessarily the same thing as what is.

Law says a teenager is a child the day before her 16th birthday and an adult two days later. The law says corporations are persons. These are not to be understood as judgement on (clearly false) reality, but as practical guidelines on where/how laws are to be applied.

Maybe Xenia would like to explain it better & with correct legal terminology.

ScarletBegonias · 01/05/2018 11:15

Thanks, Cote. Sorry if I was revisiting something that's already been covered.

I do take your point. (Although, actually I think the Children Act says children don't become adults until 18.) As you indicate, there are lots of 'legal fictions'.

It did make me think, though, that the whole 'Transwomen are women', 'No they're not, they're men' thing is oversimplified on both sides. Isn't it more like 'Transwomen are sometimes women for legal purposes but never biologically'?

(Assuming we're still allowed to say things like that here ...)

CoteDAzur · 01/05/2018 11:25

@KateMumsnet - Thank you for your reply on this thread andgoid luck with the upcoming discussions at MNHQ regarding clarification of Talk Guidelines, not just for our benefit but also for regularisation/uniformity of moderating decisions.

I have been a MNer for over a decade and saw this place move from a place where we could call each other twats and tell people to fuck off, to a place where such comments are deleted. And that's fine. However, I am alarmed by this comment of yours:

"a sneery, goady tone... posts which have an intimidating and contemptuous tone... won't be allowed to stand."

With all due respect, it would be a major step in the wrong direction for MN to start deleting posts perceived as contemptuous and sneery, in particular. I understand PAs being deleted - that's fine and arguably even necessary to keep the conversation civil. But where do you draw the line between frustrated /exasperated / sneery / contemptuous, especially if some might feel a simple "Bless" is considered among the latter?

Please consider the consequences of allowing a few thin-skinned activists define the terms of this debate, practically saying to women that we are not allowed to talk unless we are all ladylike.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/05/2018 11:33

a sneery, goady tone... posts which have an intimidating and contemptuous tone... won't be allowed to stand

I was thinking that this would leave AIBU looking live the proverbial swiss cheese - or does it just apply to trans topics?

MrPan · 01/05/2018 11:41

sneery and/or contemptuous? But..but..that's me gone. Smile...

Sounds like an approach made up on't spur of the moment. This isn't Netmums.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 01/05/2018 11:43

I think a lot of posters would be gone by that criteria Pan, and most of them in AIBU

MonsoonMama · 01/05/2018 12:05

Firstly, I agree with all the fact/science/dictionary definition based comments on here and with those who are urging free speech and contesting coercive control. Which is the vast majority of posters on this thread. However, to put my corporate hat on for a moment, Mumsnet must be under considerable pressure at the moment because of the targeting of their advertisers by TRAs (and the badmouthing by opportunistic ex-employees) - and, ultimately, they are a business, with an overriding duty to their shareholders/investors (Justine is just one of 11 shareholders), an objective of making profits and a responsibility to pay their bills. It appears that they're scrabbling around a bit at the moment under the increased scrutiny, but I'd like to think that they'll organise and come up with a co-ordinated, uniform strategy/policy that comes down on the side of free speech and embodying the principles Justine has spoken about. But we can't disregard business factors/pressures.

I'd be interested to know whether any advertisers have in fact withdrawn their business from Mumsnet as a result of the allegations of transphobia - anyone know?

MrPan · 01/05/2018 12:09

A further prob is the fact that outside of netty forums generally, proposed amendments to/the scrapping of the 2004 act to facilitate self-id is just not being talked about, or even known of. I don't mix in under-informed circles but exaclty no-one I know has any knowledge, and look at me skewdly, as if I'm the ultimate conspiracy-theorist victim. Which means the circles they discuss/socialise in aren't discussing it either. And these are, generally, feminist women and what can be tagged as 'allies'. IF these folk aren't catching it, then who is?
I'm not everyman , but I'd guess something of a weathervane, in my liberally-lefty, public service, highly socially-engaged, wide family and friendships kind of way. And nothing, other than my sisters who both work in the public sector and this has been necessarily brought to their doors.

We have "news management" in broadcast and social media being highly practised.

OlennasWimple · 01/05/2018 12:09

It's interesting thinking about how trans people do get treated across the rest of MN

I've seen threads in _Chat deleted that speculated whether A was "really a man" (as they should be - it was basically idle gossip).

Someone posting in Style & Beauty saying that they need an outfit to go to a wedding, have recently started wearing dresses and are having difficulty finding stuff to fit a 6'4" frame and size 10 feet would (I'm pretty certain) be given lots of helpful advice and suggestions - I love a "find me a frock" thread!

Someone posting in Relationships about an abusive relationship where it was clear / suggested that the victim was trans would get the same advice on how to keep safe and get toegheter a plan to LTB as anyone else

Etc etc

The difference in FWR is not that we are a nest of nasty vipers, it's that we are discussing and analysing things through a feminist prism, which necessarily includes analysis of the class called Man and the class called Woman. Where individuals are discussed, their trans status is relevant, because they are taking away spaces reserved for women, or they are displaying male aggression / entitlement / attitude and part of feminist analysis is to recognise and name that behaviour.

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 12:09

I'd be interested to know whether any advertisers have in fact withdrawn their business from Mumsnet as a result of the allegations of transphobia - anyone know?

Not as far as I'm aware, I'm pretty sure the TAs would be crowing from the rooftops if they had.

LangCleg · 01/05/2018 12:11

Like many of us she comes here for support and to be heard not to be gaslighted into silence.

EXACTLY.

If there is an exodus here to Reddit GC I'll follow because talk, debate, support and the sheer relief of other women who see the gaslighting and understand is VITAL and it can't be effective when voices (even the ones we don't like) are silenced.

So will I.

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