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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ Deletion Policy

935 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 17:03

Earlier today the Trans Park Run thread was deleted in its entirety because SOME posts alleging cheating were deemed to be 'not in the spirit' of MN.

We have a thread about that running.

I have just been deleted on the Heather Peto thread for posting this:

"Bless..."

A post intended to be mildly dismissive.

That was deleted for breaking talk guidelines.

Give me a fucking break MNHQ.

"Bless..." gets a deletion!??!?!

TRA really have got you on a short chain, haven't they?

OP posts:
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Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 02:30

You said it on the now deleted Parkrun thread too, Cady. I'm sorry, but I remember what people have posted when I argue with them on a thread.

Me too. Which is why I knew exactly which post it was that Cady said exactly that.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 02:32

Where Cady said

FredNerk · 01/05/2018 06:48

Bit more than a third of the way theough the thread and agreeing totally with loudaloneknows:

I think they're getting what they want: us squabbling amongst ourselves - divide and rule and the ones who get a sexual thrill out of being ridiculed for being female are getting their wank material sorted too.

Yawn indeed.

It took no time at all for TRAs to completely derail a thread about general problems with inconsistent and opaque moderation and make it all about them.

They are all about silencing women, and for whatever reason - fear or agreement - MNHQ is enabling this.

BlackeyedSusan · 01/05/2018 07:09

it could be seen as disablist to insist on calling men women when you can see that they are not. It is very distressing for some people with autism.

even if someone has been living as a women for years, looks like a women, has a gender recognistion certificate etc, they still have xy chromosomes. the law says that you must identify them as a women. it is polite, as well, to use she her etc, but it does not make them actually biologically women. People that insist that they are are not correct. it is impossible. and very distressing to insist that they are.

if the law says they are to be treated as women that is different.

TheUterati · 01/05/2018 07:15

@Kate, @MNHQ - I do not accept your non-apology for deleting 'bless...'

How dare you justify your actions by saying that my 'tone' did not sit within the terms of civil debate? How dare you.

I made you do it, did I??? Where have we heard that gaslighting crap before?

OP posts:
Pratchet · 01/05/2018 07:22

It will be ok. They can't and won't do it for ever.

Pratchet · 01/05/2018 07:23

what does net mums do with the trans debate?

AnitaLovesVictor · 01/05/2018 07:27

Netmums apparently just deletes all trans discussion threads. Gone in a puff of smoke within seconds.

Which is what the TAs want MN to do.

Pratchet · 01/05/2018 07:36

Ah ok. It's left up one thing about a production company wanting to film a trans pregnancy. Because that's so different to ... oh wait

changeypants · 01/05/2018 07:46

I can't work out flowers on my phone but I just wanted to say thanks to so many of the awesome regular posters here. I think you're amazing and I'm learning so much from you all. I feel genuinely terrified when I read biological untruths asserted as fact. Because if we can't have objective science then we are all fucked. I also feel terrified for myself because my language to describe all the fucked up things that have happened to me is being eroded. But then I think of the women here, and just knowing that you exist and are out there even when you are not allowed to be on here, helps a bit.

FredNerk · 01/05/2018 07:46

if the law says they are to be treated as women that is different.

Treated as women meaning what? Letting men into women’s private places. Refusing women the right to have women attend to their intimate or medical needs. Denying women the right to any place away from men outside their own homes.

This is worse than a “the law is a ass - an idiot” moment. It’s more like the law is very deliberately misogynistic. Be silent, women! Lose all your hard-won rights to freedom of speech and assembly! Your politicians are delighted to use this miniscule minority of men - a portion of a minority, indeed - to beat you down.

Now, how long before this is deleted at the behest of the TRAs?

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 07:57

Oh good everyone is still here

Thansk for the advice re coffee drip tru Grin (i went to bed very late on the last election night so although may won....she didnt win well)

@MNHQ its a really difficult job you are doing, and people are always going to think you are doing it wrong. Thanks

( deleting bless and yawn and dictionary definitions is wrong...just want to make that clear, i think you're great...but that was wrong and i am not a big enough person to stop taking the piss. I would like to be a better human and rise above taking the piss...but ive been trying to do that for over 40 years, not happening)

Pratchet · 01/05/2018 08:06

I've seen this said before and it's sooo true, for TRA this is a job. Hundreds of TRA right now focussed on shutting down MN feminism, across the world, sitting in basements, trying to hack, working out timings for optimal moderation, micro reporting, signing up, re-signing up, attacking advertisers, trying to get jobs here, starting threads, trolling, pretending to be bigoted, taking screenshots, in contact with each other, sharing info, complaining on social media, targeting, spamming, lying. All we have are us, a bunch of mums and friendly sisters with sticky iPhones and old iPads when we can wrench them off the kids, and here we are, still talking, still laughing for God's sake, still telling the truth. And people are still listening. We will NOT be broken!

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 01/05/2018 08:10

deleting bless and yawn and dictionary definitions is wrong...just want to make that clear

Not to mention draconian..

And anti-feminist, since it has only been FWR that has been subjected to draconian censorship.

And entirely counter to freedom of speech - taking the partisan position of singling out only one side of the 'debate' for draconian censorship.

Just sayin

AnnUnderTheFryingPan · 01/05/2018 08:11

I am so entirely fucked off with this.

Eleven years I’ve been on here, and it’s seen me through some awful times.

And this Is the thing that sees me off?

Fuck me. 🤬

UrsulaPandress · 01/05/2018 08:15

Amen to that Pratchet

There will always be places men can't get to no matter how hard they try.

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 01/05/2018 08:17

We will NOT be broken!

Indeed.

RedToothBrush · 01/05/2018 08:17

CadyHeron talks about context and rudeness. And this is part of the problem. There can not be a blanket rule. But there does need to be respect for each other and how each group is sensitive and a building of trust.

I've seen this morning someone on twitter who was upset because they have a GRC but were being referred to as male. I don't know the context and I have no idea if this was in reference to this thread or not.

What I see happening is that posters respond to a person on the basis of their behaviour rather than identity. If they feel threatened or silenced there lean towards disrespect and calling someone male because they feel they have been disrespect. If they feel their biological barriers are being belittled and ignored they err towards belittling and not knowledging others concerns.

As I say, this is a cycle which escalates. And it demonstrates why biology can not be ignored.

There are cases where discussion touches on people who are post op and have legal status where this remains relevant too.

I was reading this week about a case of a transman. They had to have a kidney transplant because their belief in the ideology was greater than the reality of biology.

What happened was that they had turned up at hospital but were reluctant to be treated because they did not want to be misgendered. They were told they had to stop talking testosterone because it was physically harming them. Blood measurements were taken on the basis of them being female.

But they ignored advice and continued to take testosterone. So the problem persisted. What happened subsequently was the patient turned up at another hospital because they didn't like the treatment they had. At this hospital they were treated as if they were male. Their bloods were fine on the male measurements but not on the female. And ultimately the political correctness of the hospital resulting in the patient becoming very ill indeed and ultimately needing a transplant.

So in the midst of all of this about male bodied there are contexts where it is hugely important to talk about and there are issues where it would be harmful to ignore.

I really do hope that MN understand this when coming up with guidelines. Because making certain subjects effectively off limits isn't in anyone's interests.

The denial of reality might be a painful thing emotionally for trans people to deal with, but it isn't always hateful to discuss these things.

Concerned parents need to freedom to approach this reality. Parents who deny this reality and don't help their child to understand this importance are not necessarily protecting them. They could be setting them up for harm.

Equally when TRAs deny biological reality they limit and restrict the ability of women to talk about their own biological issues. Identity and ideology is trumping health. Women are kicking back against this. As they should. Because it affects their health. It affects their ability to function in society because of just how huge the impact of biology ultimately is. Blindness and attempts to silence women about biology is discriminatory.

Political correctness just adds another barrier to taboo subjects. It stops people talking full stop. People do not get pregnant. Women do. Thats the end of the discussion in the main. For the few transmen out there they need to understand its not discriminatory to keep using the word woman. Yes, in politeness staff treating them should refer to them as they want, but reality remains and we need the means to keep talking freely.

If you are more concerned with tripping over language and upsetting because you use biological terms, it will cause harm though silencing.

Some of these same issues also are true of sexual assault and rape. But here the conversation becomes even more fraught and emotional. But the point remains. Ditto the emotional abuse and coercion of lesbians.

Whilst a GRC creates a law to protect individuals it does not and should not make entire subjects off limits because of the nuances and complexities of these issues.

Transphobia as a blanket term is nonsense and is damaging for everyone.

We ALL have to move forward understanding and acknowledging the problems and limitations of the law and how reality is inescapable. Reality can and is distressing to all of us in different ways. But we are prisoners to it.

NOTHING will change that.

I personally wish that was not the case because it would save so much pain. But there isn't a magic wand, and no amount of surgery, hormones, pronoun sensitivity or legal ruling will ever change that.

CoteDAzur · 01/05/2018 08:20

Cady - re "Can you not see that it's not the same?"

No, I really honestly truly don't. Please explain.

"Saying a transitioned transwoman is not a biological woman. Truth. Cos biology."

That is exactly what I said in the post that was deleted!

Woman = Adult human female and Female = Of the sex that can bear young or make eggs, therefore a trans woman can we'll be "womanly" (feminine) but can't be a Woman as per dictionary definitions.

But then you defined transphobia downthread as "Refusing to accept fully transitioned, full surgery, properly living as a woman for years as female".

So yeah, do explain please. When we refuse to accept trans women as female, you claim we are being transphobic but when you refuse to accept them as female it's "Truth. Cos biology."

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 08:22

I 100 per cent did NOT say go to bed, to ANY poster. Or anything even remotely like that. Total, utter, outright lie. Why do that?
I don't want whole posts deleted. I debate on here. I discuss. Listen to everyone. Who are you helping by doing that? Noone.

RefuseToDenounceBiology · 01/05/2018 08:24

How dare you justify your actions by saying that my 'tone' did not sit within the terms of civil debate?

Exactly. My hope is that the non-apology was just part of a damage-limitation exercise while internally reviewing mod activities and putting in greater restrictions for those who are completely out of their depth.

But there's been a cavalier attitude around our concerns about our rights recently before, so....

thebewilderness · 01/05/2018 08:26

I realize that MN is on the receiving end of a high intensity male dominance display.
I appreciate the space being provided for FWR.
I am extremely angry and I am not going to go away.

thebewilderness · 01/05/2018 08:29

CadyHeron
Please accept this award for deploying the Newt Gengrich "Anyone who quotes me is lying" gambit a second time.Biscuit

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 08:30

cady

Reread it

Youve got completely the round end of the stick!!

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 08:31

cady

C'mon love...i know you are stressed but erish was telling herself to go to bed

(Unless its not that post you are referring to in which case ignore me)