Trans Park Run Deletion

[TheUterati]

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

spontaneousgiventime: In all the time I have been reading then posting about this, one thing sticks out in my mind. Feminists have said time and time and time again, they have the know how and ability to help trans people fight for their own spaces. Every feminist has said (me included) they would support this and campaign for this. Go out of our way to help trans people gain their own safe spaces too. It's been thrown in our faces time and time again, especially by trans woman because they want our spaces because it's validating to enter a sex segregated womans space

BIB. That's the bit they'll never admit, isn't it? Like seeing your new name on a Parkrun website with F in the gender column.

And that's why we'll struggle to find a compromise on this.

sardine

Really dont want to say the name but she is on the shon faye thread

Ada I asked early why your feelings are more important than my biology. You didn’t answer then and I dropped it but given you wrote this And if that is your perspective, the kindest, fairest approach is to find a way of letting me live my life as safely as possible, but without encroaching on the issues of the people you do acknowledge as women, who genuinely do have issues that need attention and effort.
I ask again why are you feelings more important than my biology?

ICJump,

Surely Ada is not saying her feelings are more important? She's specifically acknowledging that she can't change our minds on the "I'm a woman" point and rather than throwing a hissy fit she's acknowledging that she doesn't have a right to encroach on natal women's spaces?

I think Ada gets that for natal women we have to centre ourselves.

Well Ada has decided how woman running in park run are placed. When woman are saying we don’t want that. So yes I think Ada is saying Adas feelings are more important.

BIB. That's the bit they'll never admit, isn't it? Like seeing your new name on a Parkrun website with F in the gender column.

Exactly, then they like to rub it into womens faces as we've seen on this thread.

How is Ada saying her feelings are more important, she is just saying her feelings. Why are your feelings more important? You don't speak for all women anymore than I do and I'm happy for Ada to run as a female if she wants and parkrun allow it.
Yes some women won't like it, but some women don't like the fast runners shouting at them to move, some women don't like the slow runners getting in their way, some women don't like the open courses where public have right of way too.
If you don't like parkrun you don't have to do it, if you care about stats and comparison there are competitions where it is checked. Nobody's data is checked in parkrun. I'm pretty sure some people lie about their ages, does it matter, not a bit.

Hear, hear, Lichtie!!

Round and round and round we go, where it stops nobody knows.

"Well Ada has decided how woman running in park run are placed. When woman are saying we don’t want that. So yes I think Ada is saying Adas feelings are more important"

No that doesn't stack up. Firstly, Parkrun decides what happens in Parkrun. They publish times (it was always a timed run) but every single communication stresses that it is not about the times, it's about participation and inclusion. It is not a competition.

I am a female Parkrunner who is perfectly happy for inclusivity and self identification in non-competitive community events.

My voice matters in exactly the same way as anyone else's, so some don't think Ada should be there, and some do. The final and only arbiter is Parkrun itself.

If change is wanted, the regular runners are going to need to lobby their Event Director and Run Directors, and/or email Parkrun directly. But a plan of what changes would improve Parkrun is of course going to be a necessary/welcome starting point. And of course, if Parkrun numbers actually start falling (because people who find their approach to inclusivity intolerable, and are easily able to vote with their feet by running in different events or clubs, and they let Parkrun know why) then that would be the strongest form of persuasion.

My voice matters in exactly the same way as anyone else's, so some don't think Ada should be there, and some do.

But no one has said they don’t think Ada should be there.

My voice matters in exactly the same way as anyone else's, so some don't think Ada should be there, and some do.

I don't think anyone has said that? It's frustrating when people add comments to a long thread without having read (or understood?) the thread and making assumptions as to what the thread is about and what previous posters have said.

I have been on this thread since page 1.

And yes, there have been plenty i comments that Ada should not be in Parkrun as she currently is. Please do not gaslight,, by suggesting (even if it was not your intention) that I have not been on this thread through, or that my understanding is faulty.

(and I was also on the deleted thread)

nd yes, there have been plenty i comments that Ada should not be in Parkrun as she currently

Thats not what you said

I agree with this statement...not your original one

Auntie Stella - same. A woman, and been on both threads since the beginning. And a parkrunner.
Absolutely no problems at all and love the fact parkrun is so friendly and inclusive.

'Ada should not be categorised as female during Parkrun' ≠ 'Ada should not be in Parkrun'

I recognise that you disagree with the first statement, but pretending that people are actually saying the second instead doesn't help your argument.

I'm a parkrunner too. I'm happy that Ada (or any other person) joins parkrun, I think it's ace.

However, for those who aren't parkrunners, this is the type of email I receive after every parkrun:

"Congratulations on completing your th parkrun and your at parkrun today. You finished in th place and were the th female out of a field of parkrunners and you came * in your age category **"

Even parkrun clearly recognise that some people want to compare themselves to other runners both overall and split by sex and by age and that's why they provide that information individually to each parkrunner. Not all parkrunners care, but some obviously do. Even if one personally don't care about one's position in the categories, imo, it's a mark of respect to your fellow runners who do want to compare themselves with their biological peers, to categorise oneself biologically accurately or, at least, make use of the "assisted" category.

AuntieStella, you obviously didn't understand what is written on the thread, because you said "some don't think Ada should be there", which I don't think anyone has said. You are the one that's 'gaslighting' here.

Please do not gaslight,, by suggesting (even if it was not your intention) that I have not been on this thread through, or that my understanding is faulty.

How is her saying that she finds it frustrating that people comment on long threads without reading or understanding them fully gaslighting? You certainly don't have a clue what gaslighting means. It's a deliberate abusive tactic to manipulate someone, it's not something one does unintentionally.

And yes, there have been plenty i comments that Ada should not be in Parkrun as she currently is.

I'm sure there aren't because I and many others would have disagreed. Please point them out if they are.

Having read the whole thing too, I would think that IJustNeedA's post above is closest to most people's stance on this:

I'm happy that Ada (or any other person) joins parkrun, I think it's ace.

imo, it's a mark of respect to your fellow runners who do want to compare themselves with their biological peers, to categorise oneself biologically accurately or, at least, make use of the "assisted" category.

And this is the thing when we have these discussions - people make shit up. Not one person has said that Ada or Lucy shouldn't be in ParkRun. It's open to everyone and that's brilliant.

But they are putting themselves in the biological women/female category and that's unfair.

And it really doesn't matter if it's elite sport or amateur as some have argued. Elite sportspeople - particularly in athletics - come from the ranks of amateurs.

Gaslighting - another dobber mark on the Bingo card.

Yes, no one has said transwomen shouldn’t do parkrun.

The number of transwomen at a specific ParkRun is likely to be very small so I don’t personally think Ada or Lucy - average parkrunner speed - being in the F category is a big deal, relative to many of the other sports and leisure examples of unfairness to women.

It would, however, be unethical for a transwomen who was fast relative to most other women at their local parkrun to appear in the female category in the data analysis shared with parkrunners.

There could easily be an option during registration for “don’t wish to be included in the comparisons by sex” (or age). Parkrun could still use sex stats for its own / funders’ purposes. Data scientists and software developers could easily sort it.

No one said anything about badges either.

No one said anything about badges either.

That one came out of left field.