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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Trans Park Run Deletion

991 replies

TheUterati · 30/04/2018 12:25

Poorly played, MN, very poorly played.

The perspective that when male athletes identify as female athletes and on the basis of that are eligible to compete against women, they are cheating is an absolutely valid one that is deserving of discussion.

Points in its favour are:

  1. The context of cheating in sports as a whole - those self-harming activities that athletes willingly participate in to give themselves a competitive edge.
  2. The evidence that mediocre male athletes who identify as female manage to then carve out glittering careers where those would not be available to them had they continued to compete as males.

It is an absolutely valid perspective.

Accusations of cheating against specific individuals may well be against talk guidelines, in the absence of supporting evidence, but those individual posts can be deleted and a friendly warning from MNHQ posted on the thread.

Males identifying as females and competing in female sports is a key issue in GRA, whether it occurs at the 'social, fun' end of things or at at Olympic level. To silence this debate is an appallingly heavy-handed.

OP posts:
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loudaloneknows · 01/05/2018 11:13

@CadyHeron Your post would also be considered transphobic. In a recent debate I took part in, the argument was that there has been no 'transition' as they have always been women, just incorrectly assigned at birth.

Talking about the need to transition at all is transphobic.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:14

It feels very odd to be arguing for the other side doesnt it?

It really does, feels weird lol.

Posters on here say they have no problem with tw living under the radar getting on with their lives but that thread shows for some people, that is clearly untrue. Is certainly opened my eyes.

Yes,mine too. It's clear some really do have a problem with all.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 11:21

Isn't it obvious from the deletion message that most of the thread was transphobic and that's why it was deleted? Mnhq can't say that though. The best they can do to avoid backlash from the posters on that thread is to say "not in the spirit".

No it isn't. It turned into a bun fight. They often delete those in AIBU etc. It's ok to believe trans identified males aren't women. Really it is.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 11:21

Its not rocket science

Poster B says they have no problem with transpeople cracking on with life

Poster A says they think transpeople shoukd be banned from...whatever

I would have thought it was fucking obvious that some people have more of a problem with aspects of it than others

Lancelottie · 01/05/2018 11:21

The T or N suggestion was mine, Cadyheron.

I didn't intend it to be transphobic, merely honest: I think it's probably cruel to make people declare themselves as the sex they long not to be, I don't think we can always count people as they sex they would prefer to be, and this is the only halfway house I can see.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 11:21

Wonder why i put poster B first

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 11:22

But males are not women, and gutting though that may be, it isn't transphobic to know it. Nor is it somehow women's fault.

This.

Lancelottie · 01/05/2018 11:24

I deliberately chose N as it could stand for a range of options including 'not declared'.

But I spend the day job asking people to clarify their meaning, so probably lack tact in these things.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 11:26

The women will start xx leagues and they'll want in on that too. Nothing will ever be enough.

Yes. Anyone who genuinely doesn't believe this is extremely naive.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:29

I would have thought it was fucking obvious that some people have more of a problem with aspects of it than others

Well, quite. The ones that cross a line though are obviously not going to stand. That thread did cross it, in a way that hadn't before which'll be why all the deletions.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 11:30

It's not transphobic to say not biologically a woman, as that is the truth.

Except you did say that it was transphobic and got called out for this last night. By more than one poster.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:33

Except you did say that it was transphobic and got called out for this last night. By more than one poster.
No. I didn't. Put simply, as I've said it before in more detail, I said there is a way of saying it. You really, really don't get it,do you?

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 11:34

It's you who doesn't get it. Would you like to explain what I'm missing exactly?

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 11:36

Yes cady

We are not arguing Smile

But i dont think the entire thread shoukd be closed due to some deletions

And we know that some posts by some of the more vocal trans activist supporters have also been deleted and that posts quoting the dictionary and words such as 'yawn' have also been deleted

I am not happy with people inferring, implying or insinuating that all the deletions are down to transphobic posts

When it should again be fucking obvious that its not

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:37

It's you who doesn't get it. Would you like to explain what I'm missing exactly?

I have. Repeatedly. The whole bloody thread went poof minutes after your post on the last thread.
There's no point. You don't get it.I don't want the discussion to disappear again.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 11:38

I think that MNHQ shoukd be more transparent with their deletion messages

So

Deleted as we believe that this is a transphobic/homophobic/disabalist/ goady comment

Etc

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 01/05/2018 11:40

t.I don't want the discussion to disappear again

I doubt very much that it was down to erishkigal

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:41

Not altogether, to be fair. Was degenerating before that but that probably just sealed it as it was out and out blatant.

Trousersdontmakemeaman · 01/05/2018 11:42

The thread didn't go poof because of Ereshkigal's last post.

There was another conversation going on that was the likely cause, about cheating which is what mumsnet said.

CadyHeron · 01/05/2018 11:45

As I said, it was all going downhill before, the cheating conversation from some will have been due to it as well.
It didn't help matters.

RatRolyPoly · 01/05/2018 11:47

The T or N suggestion was mine, Cadyheron.

Oh my god Lancelottie did you really suggest that?? I missed it. I have an almost visceral reaction to the idea of someone identifying themselves in this way; maybe they should also stitch a sign onto their clothing - some sort of symbol - so that we all know they're trans, all of the time....

I'm sure you didn't mean anything quite that sinister, but my family are Poles and the second world war still feels very, very recent to us. And deeply traumatic. The very idea of marking someone's race entry with an identifying mark is so worryingly reminiscent to me that I can't even consider in without extreme emotion.

No doubt I'm not the only one who would react in this way.

RatRolyPoly · 01/05/2018 11:58

I will say that undoubtedly that's an extreme reaction, hoever it will be there lurking in the public consciousness.

Probably doesn't help that I've seen people linking to Breitbart and "Eagle Rising" to back up their arguments. And then there's that "Trans Crime" website, which is possibly the most abhorrent thing I can imagine...

Really pleased to see posters drawing their own lines in the sand though; I find that reassuring.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 12:05

have. Repeatedly. The whole bloody thread went poof minutes after your post on the last thread.
There's no point. You don't get it.I don't want the discussion to disappear again.

Just stop it. What I said was perfectly reasonable.

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 12:07

And then there's that "Trans Crime" website, which is possibly the most abhorrent thing I can imagine...

We are constantly asked to provide evidence that trans identified males have ever hurt women. So we do, and yet that's "abhorrent".

Ereshkigal · 01/05/2018 12:09

Was degenerating before that but that probably just sealed it as it was out and out blatant.

No it was not. Stop misrepresenting me.

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