Nearly every mass killer is a man. Why aren’t we talking about that?

[CircleSquareCircleSquare]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/26/mass-killer-toronto-attack-man-men?

“After the Toronto attack, there should be a debate about toxic masculinity, and the issues of identity and rage that turn so many men towards violence”

I don’t dare to read the comments.

Spaghetti

How happy do you think the millions of women raped every year are

Presumably extremely unhappy.

As I said, my position isn't that the status quo does not need changing.

I can't really get over how nasty and self centred the NAMALT thing is and how men have no shame in seeing how affected women are by violence and saying 'not my problem.' It underlines for me how much men just consider themselves and their own feelings above all else.

I'm white and while I don't feel guilt for racism, when people talk about racism against them it really affects me and I do feel there are things I should do (though I struggle to find practical things, beyond listening). I don't say 'not all white people are like that' or 'I'm not racist so stop bugging me with this as you're trying to make me feel guilty.' Why? Because I don't think like that. Why? Because I'm not a raging arsehole.

NAMALT.

Yes. Clearly.

But also - barely ANY women are.

So when you look at who actually is carrying out virtually all violent acts, it's men.

Not all men. But still, it's men doing it. Not women.

So saying 'not all men are like that' means nothing. Because virtually NO women are like that.

I know you said your position isn't that the status quo does not need changing. You also said you're happy for it to happen gradually and slowly. While all this slow change is making you happy, millions of women are raped, stalked, abused, murdered. Isn't that a problem?

I should also add that I would never tell a person subjected to racism that I'm happy with their lives getting better gradually and slowly, because the incredibly patronising smugness of that is abhorrent.

Spaghetti

I agree that in an ideal world we should be able to wave a magic wand and get rid of violence, inequality etc. But we don't live in an ideal world, we live in this one.

Surely you can see that stating you are happy with the direction that a society is moving in, isn't the same as saying you are happy with the circumstances of every single person within that society.

When a group expresses genuine fear and despair about a situation in which they feel threatened and unsafe, telling that group that you're happy with how things are going is odd at best and nasty at worst. When people tell me about racism my thought process doesn't centre around how I feel about things. Do you have no empathy? Doesn't the situation anger you at all?

I read this today. www.nytimes.com/2018/04/26/opinion/when-misogynists-become-terrorists.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

I remember reading Robin Morgan's book "The Demon Lover", years ago. My memory of it is a bit vague, it's been a few decades, but she explicitly links terrorism to the patriarchy. So rather than the incel groups being one strand of terrorism, she argues (and this is from memory), that societies based on hierarchies and control form the ground which allows terrorism to flourish.

In that scenario, terrorism is explicitly misogyny, because the terrorist is acting out the ultimate goals of patriarchal society. I've not read Susan Faludi's book post 9/11 (The Terror Dream), but she seems to posit the pushback against feminism to the aftermath of the attack. I suppose in a more toxic way than the [forced] retreat of women into the home when men returned from WWII.

Spaghetti

Does anything I have written suggest I have no empathy towards individuals?

You are misrepresenting my position from 'there are problems in society, we are working hard to address them and we could do more, however overall things are getting better'

And you are turning it into 'some people are better off so I don't care if others suffer'

In the face of women expressing fear and despair you said you're happy with how things are going and that gradual change is necessary. You haven't expressed any negative emotions about the situation. Do you feel any negative emotion about male violence against women? Or are you just happy about slow change?

Dance illustrates the difficulty here very well.

Societies based on hierarchy and control

Hierarchical societies do drive negative behaviours (they drive a lot of positive behaviours as well but that is a different argument)

The problem is that hierarchical societies have existed in nature for a long time (longer than trees have)

Just saying 'hierarchies are the problem, let's get rid of them' completely denies something absolutely fundamental to human nature and societal development.

Spaghetti

I'm deeply unhappy about all violence against women.

I find it very interesting that men often sound off key in this kind of discussion. Maybe it's because they assume their thoughts and analysis are valuable? Maybe it's because they don't hear or understand women's concerns? I would try harder to pinpoint it, but to be honest I don't want to put the effort in. I just recognise the tone and think: no, men just don't get it. And worse, they don't even try. Maybe because they'd rather hear the sound of their own voices than listen to women? I don't know. But I wish they'd get out of the way.

I noticed the slimy 'all' patriarchy but tbh I'm glad to see you express some humanity so I'll let it slide. Maybe your happiness at slow progress won't be quite so complete now eh?

Good article in tones today by Janice (thanks to reluctantC and Brashbandicoot!)

<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.thetimes.co.uk/article/self-hating-incel-men-are-the-new-jihadis-5rz37h9s9?shareToken=2c241c337afb011e18d1d2cebf082548" target="_blank">http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.thetimes.co.uk/article/self-hating-incel-men-are-the-new-jihadis-5rz37h9s9?shareToken=2c241c337afb011e18d1d2cebf082548

Just saying 'hierarchies are the problem, let's get rid of them' completely denies something absolutely fundamental to human nature and societal development.

Not all human societies are or have been hierarchical in that way though - the onset of agriculture seems to have been the trigger for an awful lot of it. Surplus—> leisure—> classes. You also see differences in hunter gatherer societies with periodic surplus - they tend to be community focused/sharing bounty type rather than settled storage/accumulation type.
When you look at non agricultural societies and pre agricultural societies you see a different dynamic.

Humans are successful partly because of our biology (we are a mid sized mammal, omnivores, endurance physiology, opposable thumbs and big brains) and partly because of what that biology allows us to DO - which is thrive and adapt in very diverse niches. We do OK in the high arctic, we’ve managed in the danakil depression and everywhere in between.

There’s no set ‘right way’ for a human society to operate to the exclusion of all other methods. Agricultural-priest class-hierarchy is one model, and one that’s worked for dense populations. But other models are available. If you were going to argue it, how we live now is not how we’ve lived for most of our evolutionary history.

I don't feel guilt for racism

or

I don't say 'not all white people are like that' or 'I'm not racist so stop bugging me with this as you're trying to make me feel guilty.'

So which one is it, then ?

I'm not sure what you mean sawdust?

@sawdustformypony Why not both "I don't feel guilty" AND "I don't say NAWPALT"? I don't see a conflict here.

Spaghetti

Ok, lets explore it a little further. You wrote this morning that you didn't feel guilty for racism, by which I take you to mean that (a) you are not yourself a racist and (b) furthermore, you don't hold yourself accountable for the racism of others. (Although, you could alternatively be saying 'I am a racist and proud of it - but this seems unlikely from reading the rest of your posting.)

Then in the same paragraph, you deny that you would say 'not all white people are like that'....notwithstanding you just did say that about yourself. Then confusingly, having implied you weren't a racist, you seem to suggest that others trying to make you feel guilty for it, was something you wouldn't seek to challenge.

ho hum, funny old world eh ?

No, sawdust, let me explain it again for you. It's not complicated but you seem to need some help. What I was saying was that if a group of people tell you about circumstances that impact negatively on their lives, such as violence, sexism and racism, responding that not all people do those things makes you a raging dickhead, because guess what? It's not about you or whether you do it or not. Therefore even though I'm not racist, if someone tells me about racism Idon't respond with 'not all white people are like that' because I'm not a massive self centred wankstain who's only concerned with making myself feel better. Get it?

Also because I'm not a wankstain, I understand that if people do tell me about racism they aren't trying to make me feel guilty because again, it isn't about me and again I get that because I am not a massively self centred dick.

My point being that when men hear about male violence against women and their first response isn't empathy, anger, understanding of any sort of feeling, rather it's an immediate defence iftheir own feelings with 'not all men are like that' that just marks them out as utter arsewipes who are entirely self serving.

That a bit clearer now?

Good clear explanation there Spaghetti even the hardest of thinkers should get that.

And just for the record, I agree that NAMALTing on yet another thread about MVAWG not only makes you a bit of a self centred wankstain, but further, that it's gaslighting.

I am white, I try really hard not to be a racist, but, if a PoC tells me that something I've said is racist or hurtful to them, then my first port of call isn't to reply "well, I deplore all violence to PoC, but NAWPALT" because it's a shitty thing to do.

Well said Spaghetti I’m having this argument currently on Twitter re disablism and a black woman has told me to just suck it up because now I know how black women feel. I did not respond that “not all white people are like that” I responded that I recognise my white privilege and challenge racism directly wherever I see it.

Because if we all sat back and used whataboutery and “but they’re not all like that” nothing would ever change.

Recognising what is wrong, and understanding that it is apologists and defenders who cause a significant amount of damage is key.

I should add that if I did something and a person sincerely said 'that makes you seem racist,' I would have a serious think about why that was and apologise if necessary because I understand that even if I am not a racist, I can still unintentionally perpetuate racist systems and stereotypes. It takes maturity, character and guts to say 'fuck that was a dickhead move, I'm really sorry.'

You know what it takes to say 'not all white people/men are like that'? A raging sense of narcissism and a self concept so incredibly fragile that in the face of other people's genuine upset your only thought us your own ego.

I should add that if I did something and a person sincerely said 'that makes you seem racist,' I would have a serious think about why that was and apologise if necessary because I understand that even if I am not a racist, I can still unintentionally perpetuate racist systems and stereotypes. It takes maturity, character and guts to say 'fuck that was a dickhead move, I'm really sorry.'

Wholeheartedly agree with this too. If I was ever told something I said was deeply hurtful and racist/homophobic/disablist/prejudiced I wouldn’t shout back. I’d stop and think about why that person was telling me that, and think about how what I said made them feel.