Nearly every mass killer is a man. Why aren’t we talking about that?

[CircleSquareCircleSquare]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/26/mass-killer-toronto-attack-man-men?

“After the Toronto attack, there should be a debate about toxic masculinity, and the issues of identity and rage that turn so many men towards violence”

I don’t dare to read the comments.

When women came out against years of abuse at the hands of directors and producers, for example, there were a number of 'reasonable' men arguing in all sincerity that the 'me too' movement would endanger men's ability to hit on women and they sincerely expected there to be concern about that and genuine worry over the idea that a man asking a woman out might appear sexist/predatory. Men actually implied that women trying to get justice for life damaging sexual violence was a problem because it might stop them getting dates. That's the 'reasonable' and 'objective' world I live in patriarchy.

Spaghetti

Well legally the idea of the 'reasonable person' takes on the characteristics that are relevant to the situation, for example if a doctor is on trial, and medical knowledge is key to the case, then the reasonable person in that circumstance would be judged to also be a medical doctor for the purposes of the legal fiction.

So in a situation of alleged sexism against a woman, the reasonable person would also be a woman.

So if the reasonable person to talk about sexism is a woman, why are you on a feminist thread telling women about sexism?

although this thread is about some men.

I think the problem with the idea of the 'reasonable person' in this instance is particular to this forum.

Most women in the UK don't identify as feminist, whereas most of the women on this forum (Feminist Chat) I assume would identify as feminists.

The rub is that the reasonable person is viewed against the totality of a society. In a society like ours, it's likely that the feminist perspective would not viewed as reasonable, and wouldn't represent the view of the 'reasonable person', even if the 'reasonable person' was a woman.

I'm not saying that to be goady, it's just something to think about.

Something to think about? Because you seriously think that you've given us a deep insight into feminism? Jesus the arrogance

Spaghetti

Why are you on a feminist thread

Because it's interesting to have my ideas challenged

Yes I find that men find women's suffering and despair an interesting challenge

To you patriarchy, this is an interesting discussion about things that you feel don't really affect you. You say you're happy with how things are going. How interested and happy will you be when your daughter becomes the target of sexual violence? And I didn't say if, I said when. Because I know a lot of women and not a single one has escaped.

The terms 'toxic masculinity' is misandrous. You are tarring all men with the same brush which solves nothing.

To clarify, she may be one of the 'lucky' ones who 'just' gets catcalled in her school uniform, or 'just' groped in a club, or 'just' chased down a street late at night. Or she may be one of the millions raped every year. But as things are at the moment,bin the situation you're happy with, it's going to be some form of threat, fear, violence, trauma. Because that's life for women. Not an interesting challenge of ideas, real life.

Testosterone is the main explanator of the prevalence of male vs female violence and not socialisation

It can't just be that simplistic. I have no personal experience of male violence. The men in my family are not violent. I was brought up by my grandfather who did not believe in corporal punishment for children (at a time when that was widely acceptable) I have never had a violent partner (I did briefly have a partner with a serious drink problem but he was not violent)

My husband is from a traditional Scottish, working class, Glaswegian background. My father-in-law, I have been told, had a hair trigger temper- which he realised and did everything in his power to control (apparently slammed doors and long walks until he calmed down). Father-in-law never hit his wife or children (in an age where that was the norm)

Are you suggesting all of these men just had low testosterone?

Lass,

No, quite the reverse.

I am suggesting that decent males are socialised to control their aggression. I don’t know any violent males either.

Education and upbringing socialise men away from aggression.

Testosterone is the main explanator of the prevalence of male vs female violence and not socialisation.

I am suggesting that decent males are socialised to control their aggression.

I take issue with your point that society is set up solely for men with women only there to serve them

I think that kind of obvious hyperbole adds nothing to these kind of issues.
A simple statement of easily discernible facts is dismissed as hyperbole by a male who calls himself patriarchy? Srsly d00d? The jokes just write themselves.

Men kill themselves at a higher rate than women, their lives are on average 10 years shorter,
Were you thinking that men killing men more than they kill women would be reassuring to us?
they are largely under represented in higher education,
Bad choice d00d. The locked us out for years and when we forced our way in we outperformed them. Boo effing hoo.
they on average serve longer jail sentences than women for the same offences etc etc (I could go on but you get the point)
This is a bald faced lie. Women serve longer sentences for like crimes than men do, and are often convicted of the same crime for not stopping the male perp.

Just food for thought if so many are men are worried about the meetoo thing as making it hard to hit on women, what is it about the way they hit on women is so close to sexual harrasment/assault/rape that this is even a problem?

Most women in the UK don't identify as feminist,

I think this is quite disingenuous and reflects the way the media treats feminism.

If you ask women ‘are you a feminist’ a lot will say no, because the media bays on and on and on about fucking feminazis and paints feminism as a bunch of crazed man haters. There is no paper in the UK that even has the lightest little liberal feminist bias. None even talk about it.

But if you ask women ‘what’s your view on..?’ And put a few core feminist principles in there then you see a very different story.

So if you asked women ‘do you think men and women should get equal pay for equal jobs?’ ‘ should women and men be treated equally under the law’ ‘is sexual violence against women a problem?’ You suddenly get the ‘well of course it fucking is’ answers.

The true situation is not that women don’t believe in the core tenets of feminism (although we may disagree on some of those aspects) it’s the PR job that’s been done on the word itself. The media have done a great job of making feminist a negative word, not one associated with the movement to make women and men equal (which benefits decent men as well of course.)

thebewilderness

srsly d00d

Come on, you're better than this.

Exactly - women may not necessarily identify as feminists, but that doesn't mean they're not feminists.

I don't think there are many women who don't want equality for themselves, and freedom to make their own choices.

Babel

I agree with you that gender equality, reduction of violence against women, equality in the workplace etc are absolutely feminist principles.

The problem is that a large number of women who identify openly as feminist see it as so much more than that, and not in a good way.

My own experience on this forum in the last few months alone has shown me that. Please feel free to review any of the previous conversations I've had about feminism on here. (advanced search my username)

You'll see that every single time I mention gender equality/equal opportunities etc as key components of feminism I have been shouted down and told that's basically bollocks.

Every. Single. Time.

I've even had one memorable conversation where a prolific, regular poster told me that the 'equality stuff' was the 'rubbish type of feminism'.

I'm a strong believer in, and advocate for, gender equality, but it's this kind of thing that has made me not want to label myself as a feminist.

I appreciate this is just one site, but Mumsnet is pretty large and pretty influential. I don't think you can completely blame a hostile media for the bad rep. There is a fair bit of self harm too.

The problem is that a large number of women who identify openly as feminist see it as so much more than that, and not in a good way.

Ah now that’s the line the media takes. That’s exactly what I mean. They huff that it’s all very well doing x and y but that these uppity ladies just take it too far.

And when you ask ... why? How? In what circumstances? You don’t really get a concrete answer. Can you give an example or two perhaps? Real stuff?

Equal ops is one face of things. It’s a legislative sticky plaster on an underlying issue but as they say, you sort the law first and society follows.

I think women do get pissed off when men lecture them about equality because they often just don’t see the things we see - that thread i mentioned earlier about facilitated men is a really good read and has loads of examples.

And yes I DO see feminism as more than that. I see that women are oppressed because of our biology - but I didn’t truly get that before I’d been pregnant, very very sick while pregnant and treated with total disdain.
I understood that there is not true equality in the workplace much more when I’d been demoted three days after a stellar performance review when I told my work I was pregnant.

The older I’ve got, the more I see these things. I’m seeing now the first wave of divorces among friends and I’m horrified at how some of the men are treating their partners and kids.

As a younger women I was very much an optimistic liberal feminist. Now I’m a realist and a radical feminist, no question. It’s depressing, but it’s informed by what I’ve lived and seen the last twenty years. And my life has been fairly free from any real nasties.

I think upthread you said you have daughters? The awful reality is that they WILL face this stuff. Listen to them when it does, because it’s going to make you very, very, very angry. Your protective instincts are going to make you want to turn the world upside down to protect them.

Patriarchy please rest assured that you are no loss at all to feminism.

About equal ops as well. So the recent gender pay gap report all companies had to put out?

Right well our company put the figures out, and they weren’t great, and the immortal line in the accompanying email was that ‘equal pay for doing the same job is not the point of this excercise.’

I was WTF?? What the actual fuck? Of course it’s the fucking point! And not a single reply to that email picked it up.

And then all you need is one high ranking Male exec who has had male privilege all their lives identify as a woman and poof!! Away goes your gender pay gap like magic! All the problems are solved!

Except of course they’re not. And that’s I think why women do sometimes eye roll a bit about equal ops - it’s very often something people pay lip service to while continuing to shaft women in business as usual.

There IS a lot more to feminism that just equal ops.

Do stick around the feminism boards - we all have different interpretations, I’m sure plenty don’t agree with what I say, I just say what I see through my own lens. You’ll get arguments - I’ve had my arse handed to me several times. It’s all ok. It’s people, diverse people, having diverse opinions.

I’ve learned loads and changed my views on several things since being on MN.

And don’t do the man thing whereby women don’t agree with you so you’re being picked on. Disagreement is not bullying or personal or picking on you.

We don’t have to be nice.
We don’t have to agree
We don’t have to all think the same thing.

Just the liberation of not having to be nice all the fucking time. And that’s why I love MN :)

Babel

It's refreshing to talk to you. We clearly don't agree on a lot of things, but surely that's the whole point of this kind of stuff.

I do encourage you to look at some of the previous conversations I've had on here.

Rest assured, it's not been me getting upset when there have been disagreements.