Nearly every mass killer is a man. Why aren’t we talking about that?

[CircleSquareCircleSquare]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/26/mass-killer-toronto-attack-man-men?

“After the Toronto attack, there should be a debate about toxic masculinity, and the issues of identity and rage that turn so many men towards violence”

I don’t dare to read the comments.

Every thread I have ever been on has ended with me being told that equality etc is the 'rubbish type of feminism' and that revolutionary smashing of the Patriarchy and societal structures is key

But the smashing of the Patriarchy and societal structures which oppress women IS the key to equality, it’s not our fault you fail to see this.

And sticking it to the nasty men obvs

Only when they post inflammatory and patronising comments on a feminist thread.

Every thread I have ever been on has ended with me being told

Well as the Russians say, if three people tell you you are sick, go and see a doctor.

that equality etc is the 'rubbish type of feminism' and that revolutionary smashing of the Patriarchy and societal structures is key. And sticking it to the nasty men obvs.

Oddly enough, that’s not my understanding of radical feminism. Is it yours spaghetti?

Acknowledging that biology and patriarchal systems are the root cause of oppression isn’t quite the same as calling for a scorched earth policy.

You’ve said that it should stop at some definition of equal ops and you’ve been told why that isn’t enough. Repeatedly it seems.

But do tell us how we can do feminism your way. Which seems to involve no inconvenience to men, no ceding of power from men, and maintaining the status quo for men. No shuffling up a bit to accommodate women.

When all you’ve ever know is privilege then equality feels like oppression right?

Tell me more about how I’m feministing wrong.

I think women can really learn something from the fact that a man will go on a feminist thread and tell women that they are doing feminism wrong. I think we need to really take in the level of arrogance that that takes and use it to understand what we're up against.

Radical feminism is about understanding that the oppression of women comes from deep within societal structures and that incremental surface change isn't enough. We've had a lot of incremental surface change - changes in laws and policies etc - and still women are disadvantaged, raped, murdered, paid less etc etc etc.

Our society was built by men who set about systematically preventing women from having any rights. Just lobbing rights on top of that system will never work because the foundation is rotten. We have to rebuild.

That's what radical feminism is about. Radical refers to roots.

Our society was built by men who set about systematically preventing women from having any rights. Just lobbing rights on top of that system will never work because the foundation is rotten. We have to rebuild.

This sums it up perfectly.

Babel

If you disagree with the classification of patriarchy theory as a fringe idea, don't take it up with me, I didn't create that distinction, I'm just pointing it out. How many women who identify as feminists would agree with you I wonder?

The things I'm saying really aren't very controversial, they are pretty mainstream. The fact they seem shocking to you shows how much of an echo chamber you are living in.

This forum does not in any way represent reality, but that's the entire reason I choose to discuss these things here, it is really interesting to hear from the most extreme end of any debate and have your ideas challenged. If I go on a moderate feminist site, I just end up agreeing with everyone and nobody really gets anything out of it, especially not me.

I think the real fear that men have of feminism in general and of radical feminism in particular is that they believe women want to treat men the way men have treated women. I think they feel women want the tables turned and that men will end up with no rights.

That I think is actually the most telling thing of all about how men think. They claim that women aren't oppressed but as soon as the prospect of them ever coming close to the position women are in presents itself they're horrified - they absolutely do not want the treatment women have gotten because they know full well how awful it is.

I have never seen any woman express a desire to 'turn the tables' - I personally would gain no satisfaction from turning men into slaves and treating them like shit, what the fuck is the point of that?

I don't want to change things to disadvantage men, no matter how much they think that's the case. I just want my daughter to finally gain the opportunity to live in a world where she has just as much safety and opportunity as a man, where being a woman is not a disadvantage to her in any way. And that just can't happen within the way things are now, we've tried it and it just doesn't work.

You’re aware that building an equal and just society results in just that, right? It doesn’t result in a society where all the men are getting raped, beaten, paid less, and have to do all the washing up?

Getting rid of patriarchal structures doesn’t mean that women will be treating men like men treat us now

I wish the level of arrogance you have in telling feminists about feminism were a rare thing Patriarchy but it really isn't. The idea that you can tell us what women think about feminism is so ridiculous it should be a joke, but here you are genuinely doing it. It's amazing.

If I go on a moderate feminist site, I just end up agreeing with everyone and nobody really gets anything out of it, especially not me

And what do you get out of mansplaining?

Do you have a habit of telling people about subjects they are already very knowledgeable about? Or do you just tell women about what women think?

Oh cross posting... spaghetti you put it better :)

So I’m an extremist now am I? For saying that men are more violent (factual statement) that Male oppression exists? And for thinking that a world in which no one is oppressing anyone else might be quite nice to build and live in? Well I never.

I know people have been nailed to trees for less but it's hardly frothing extremism is it now? I’m sure I’ve heard wilder views put forth.

If I go on a moderate feminist site, I just end up agreeing with everyone and nobody really gets anything out of it, especially not me

😂 I’m sure things are indeed being gotten out of you.

You do realise that a lot of us here have studied, lectured, and engaged in feminist debate and discussion with hundreds of women, in some cases for decades and in some cases on an international stage? That you're not speaking to a bunch of little girls who need the benefit of your superior Man Knowledge about feminism? The utter fucking cheek of it is actually making me really angry! I didn't realise I could still get angry about this after so many years, so that's something new I suppose.

How are you not embarrassed to make such an utter fool of yourself? I cannot imagine going onto a forum with, say, black people of African origin and telling them about racism or African culture. I can't imagine the level of arrogance that takes.

But again I'm reminded of that thing that really separates women and men.

Men genuinely think that in any situation, no matter how little their knowledge or experience, they have every right to tell women How It Is and women should just listen and accept it, no matter how much more knowledge and experience the women have. I think women are constantly taken by surprise by it, because women are not brought up to even consider the idea that they can just dictate things to other people - in fact they're taught that their opinion counts for nothing and that they just have to shut up.

I think women who don't shut up really surprise men.

So if men built society, and men are violent therefore society is bad? Is that about the thrust of it?

I'm quite happy to have the society we have thank you very much! I'm more than open to negotiating changing it, but tearing the whole thing up from the root to replace it seems dangerous and irresponsible in the extreme.

I also take issue with the notion that women have not been instrumental in helping to create and grow our societies. Empress Dowager Cixi of China, Catherine The Great, Queens Elizabeth and Victoria, and it's not just leaders on the world stage women have contributed to each and every field of human endeavour, be it science, art, music, engineering you name it!

That's despite the sexism rampant across all human cultures, it makes me hugely excited to think what humanity will be capable of once the shackles are fully removed. However the radical approach sounds to me suspiciously like Marxism to me, and that always ends in tears with women often more shafted than they were before. Don't hand authoritarian collectivists a victory on a silver platter!

Spaghetti

You have lectured feminist theory?! That's the only thing you have said on this thread that has surprised me.

University of Lincoln I assume? Bradford? Bucks? Am I close?

Women did contribute to our societies in spite of sexism, yes, but given a free choice no woman would ever have chosen the society that existed, say in 1895 - no human would ever choose to be someone else's possession to be used at will. Regardless of the contribution of great women, society overall was entirely dominated and shaped by men and we have had a massive struggle to change that to the extent we already have. It's taken far far too long, simply because men have tried to scupper it every step of the way.

Radical feminism isn't about promoting anarchy or marxism or anything like that. Things like the #metoo movement for example are a contained example of the radical approach - rather than just pointing the finger at Weinstein the movement is about addressing attitudes and inequalities in the entertainment industry as a whole to get to the root of why Weinstein could and did get away with what he did for so long.

I know wherever I've lectured Patriarchy it could never match up to your Massive Testicles of Knowledge, making you Know and See so much more about feminism than any Mere Woman ever could.

As I said earlier Patriarchy - I've had men tell me about my periods, about the vaginal tears I got when my son was born, about how women feel about work. I've had men sincerely try to teach me about things that have happened in my own life. And here we have you, a man on a feminist thread trying to teach women about feminism.

Now to me that's really bizarre behaviour - the lack of insight you'd have to have to think that you could have more knowledge about a person's own experiences than they have themselves is really astounding. And yet men have displayed it so often that I have to wonder what it is that makes them think that way.

Do you have any insight for me Patriarchy?

I'm quite happy to have the society we have thank you very much!

And that is privilege in a nutshell.

I think free choice is a myth. Nobody man nor woman enjoys 100% free choice. Every choice is constrained by circumstance! I'd even argue people like the Royal Family live incredibly proscribed lives with a crucial reduction in their Liberty. Yet in other areas they enjoy more choice. Privilege can also be a double edged sword.

Yes women have been curtailed and still are, but I think it needs to be unpacked in more detail. Responsibility is the sister to freedom and combined together to create the concept of Liberty, and when you assign men greater responsibility you are in fact granting them greater Liberty relative to women.

I know we might not always agree but I hope you know I respect and am eager to hear your perspective.

0phelia way too take me out of context! I'm happy to negotiate for change I'm just wary to tear the whole thing up from the root, as historically that never ends well, but you enjoy your cheap shot!

I don’t think 0phelia made a cheap shot, I think it sums up privilege perfectly. That’s not an insult, nor is it meant offensively. It’s very rarely the people who have privilege that want to see change.

I'm not sure what you mean CritEqual? That women were as much responsible for not being able to vote as men were?