Nearly every mass killer is a man. Why aren’t we talking about that?

[CircleSquareCircleSquare]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/26/mass-killer-toronto-attack-man-men?

“After the Toronto attack, there should be a debate about toxic masculinity, and the issues of identity and rage that turn so many men towards violence”

I don’t dare to read the comments.

One thing that definitely would help to lessen male violence is to stop listening to men pedalling the fairy story that most men are lovely and adore women and only want the best for them. Women need to recognise that the situation we're in now is as a result of conscious action men took (non-violent men as much as violent men) to ensure that they could use women for their own gain and that men living now may have not taken those actions but they are also not doing much of anything at all to rectify them - any protections and freedoms women have have been gained through women having to fight tooth and nail for them against men (non-violent men, remember) who could have given those freedoms and protections easily but just didn't. Men may not commit violence but they do very very little to stop it/protect women from it and it is within that culture that the violence exists, a culture created by men as a whole, not just violent men.

So when men start NAMALTing and going on about how talking about male violence hurts their feelings, do exactly as much about that man's hurt feelings as that man has done about women being raped and murdered, ie, in the vast majority of cases, absolutely nothing. Just ignore it and say 'not my problem.'

In the face of millions of women raped every year a man expects me to care about how bad he feels to talk about it?

FUCK OFF.

Spaghetti

Who is this fictional man who expects you to care about his hurt feelings? Or are you just getting yourself angry at what a man 'might' feel if it ever came up in a conversation?

I haven't seen that happen on this thread, and I certainly don't care how you feel about my emotions...

Years and years of experience Patriarchy. It's a tactic regularly used on this board by men and which I've come across a lot in person too - women start talking about male violence and the impact on their lives and the response from men isn't 'that really sucks' or 'isn't that awful,' it's immediately all about them and how they're not violent and how they don't like, for example, women crossing the street at night because they don't feel safe because that makes them feel bad etc etc etc. Of course because women are so strongly socialised to be 'nice' and to always put men's feelings first it's very good tactic to shut women up by making them feel bad and by implying they're engaging in 'misandry' (a term that definitely has come up on this thread).

This is a quote from you Patriarchy, early on in the thread:

'I'm a man and I'm not violent. I teach my son not to be and I don't associate with people who are. Outside of those actions, why should I take responsibility for other peoples actions or share any kind of collective guilt?'

In this quote we have:

NAMALT
Not my problem
Why are you trying to hurt my feelings? In this case, make you feel guilty.

BINGO!

Spaghetti

I think you are being wilfully obtuse.

NAMALT is used as a slur on here that implies any man who says anything other than 'thats terrible' (i.e offers criticism or nuance of any kind) doesn't care about women and is quietly complicit in violence, even if they don't do it them self. Describing myself as a non-violent male isn't the same as any of those things.

Not my problem. Eh? Its by definition everyone's problem, because we are all humans so I'm not sure where you get that from. I've made clear my feelings on that throughout this entire thread.

Why are you trying to hurt my feelings? Actually it was a genuine question, not an attempted guilt trip. I'll ask it again as I never got an answer then.

Why should I take responsibility for others peoples actions or share any kind of collective guilt? What can I personally do, outside of what I already do? (described above)

I think its an important one because a lot of posters have pulled the whole 'you don't share collective guilt but' card out.

NAMALT is used as a slur on here that implies any man who says anything other than 'thats terrible' (i.e offers criticism or nuance of any kind) doesn't care about women and is quietly complicit in violence, even if they don't do it them self. Describing myself as a non-violent male isn't the same as any of those things

You really don't understand namalt. It's when we see your misogyny appearing when you say
"But I'm not violent so Not All Men Are Like That"

Or you say

"I object to you inferring that males are lore violent than women. Look at all the non violent males"

So we say OK NAMALT. Can we start talking again now?

Spaghettijumper :
'I'm a man and I'm not violent. I teach my son not to be and I don't associate with people who are. Outside of those actions, why should I take responsibility for other peoples actions or share any kind of collective guilt?'

In this quote we have:

NAMALT
Not my problem
Why are you trying to hurt my feelings? In this case, make you feel guilty.

BINGO!

Ok let me explain this one more time.

In the face of someone telling you about terrible things that happen to them and the people they love, how is criticism or 'nuance' justified? If someone tells me about racism I act like a human being and at least express human empathy with them, I don't criticise or try to introduce 'nuance' whatever that means. How is there nuance in a person's suffering.

WE ARE AWARE THAT NOT ALL MEN ARE VIOLENT

YOU DO NOT NEED TO TELL US ANY MORE

Stop using it as a way to imply the women are unfairly trying to tar you, as though, in a situation where you're a group that kills and maims and we're in the group that is killed and maimed, you are somehow the victim. Stop being a fucking baby, essentially.

Referring directly to that quote, what you've said is you'll teach your child not to be violent and you'll not associate with violent people. Essentially you'll just do the bare minimum to be passable human being. How is that not the equivalent of 'not my problem'? - essentially you're saying you don't want to put any energy into dealing with it beyond the absolute lowest level of effort you can get away with.

The guilt question is a ridiculous one. As many people told you, no one was trying to make you feel guilty because guess what? IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU AND YOUR FEELINGS! What is it with men and their feelings?

What can you do? Talk to the women in your life about their experiences of male violence. Listen. Don't talk about your feelings or how you're not violent. Does that seem like something you could do?

There one form of Namalt - the healthy one - which is "well it's one section of men that are the problem - what can I do to help? I'll defer to your wisdom - what do you need from me. OK I'll do that..."

Then the other more prevalent unhealthy form "it's not me but others - are you sure you're not part of the problem? Here's where you are going wrong. Plus unspoken: btw I'm not going to take any action to advocate for women nor organise other men so we can tackle those who are problematic. Nor will I ever ask women if my behaviour is problematic"

Woman,

Not sure why men should defer to your ‘wisdom’?

Pretty arrogant assumption.

2 legs good, 4 legs bad etc

How about women defer to men's wisdom just as much as men defer to women's wisdom Larry? Make it totally equal.

I'm guessing men wouldn't really enjoy that much.

Spaghetti

So many things here, lets address a few of them.

In the face of someone telling you about terrible things that happen to them and the people they love, how is criticism or 'nuance' justified? If someone tells me about racism I act like a human being and at least express human empathy with them, I don't criticise or try to introduce 'nuance' whatever that means. How is there nuance in a person's suffering

Its pretty important actually to ensure we have an accurate narrative to work from. I've said it before in this thread, but the kind of 'rad fem' (hate that term) opinions displayed on this thread are not normal or representative of wider society. Therefore why should I not challenge your version of the narrative or attempt to add some nuance to some of the hyperbole?

Referring directly to that quote, what you've said is you'll teach your child not to be violent and you'll not associate with violent people. Essentially you'll just do the bare minimum to be passable human being. How is that not the equivalent of 'not my problem'?

Errrm, that's not the bare minimum. That's the majority of the solution. If everyone did that then male violence figures would go through the floor within a generation.

essentially you're saying you don't want to put any energy into dealing with it beyond the absolute lowest level of effort you can get away with

Wow! Have you been taking lessons in discourse from Cathy Newman?

The guilt question is a ridiculous one. As many people told you, no one was trying to make you feel guilty because guess what? IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU AND YOUR FEELINGS! What is it with men and their feelings?

I think you have conflated the meaning of 'having guilt' (responsibility) for something and 'feeling guilty'. Do you understand the difference now I've explained that?

I don't feel guilty at all for the actions of other men outside of my control, why should I?

What can you do? Talk to the women in your life about their experiences of male violence. Listen. Don't talk about your feelings or how you're not violent. Does that seem like something you could do?

Erm, I already do those things. They are implicit in my previous statements on this thread.

Not sure why men should defer to your ‘wisdom’?

Why not? After all, it’s men who are factually shown to be responsible for the vast majority of violent crime. It’s men in positions of power (government, the police, the courts, the prison system, all heavily male orientated) who have failed to address it.

Why not listen when a woman has an idea of how to solve it?

Not sure why men should defer to your ‘wisdom’?

And there you have it. Not my problem. Unwillingness to learn. Superiority complex.

Men know absolutely nothing about what it is to be female in a male dominated world and many are confidently open about how they don't care to know more.

Both of you are pitching men against women. Neither of you speak for all women or all men, and the sooner we get away from this stupid binary form of ‘debate’ the better. It’s like a school playground.

spaghetti

I'm feeling for you right now. Ignore it

0phelia

And there you have it. Not my problem. Unwillingness to learn. Superiority complex

Not quite. The 'your' that Larry was referring to was Spaghetti, not women in general.

But I think you knew that all along.

Not sure why men should defer to your ‘wisdom’?

Lived experience of Male violence? 40 odd years of experiencing life as a woman, of feeling like prey in far too many situations, of having to watch what you wear, where you go, how, with whom. What you say, or drink. Or being catcalled, grabbed, perhaps seriously sexually assaulted, witnessing friends and colleagues live through domestic violence, perhaps living through it yourself? Just having to adjust your behaviour every single time you are out in public to take safe routes, watch out, be safe. From men.

Little things like that, maybe?

Smeddum

Why not listen when a woman has an idea of how to solve it?

That's a good idea, the problem is that we have listened to Spaghetti she is coming across like a cartoon character feminist drawn by Donald Trump.

That's a good idea, the problem is that we have listened to Spaghetti she is coming across like a cartoon character feminist drawn by Donald Trump

I find it really offensive when a man resorts to insults when a woman disagrees. It negates any valid points you may or may not have had.

Smeddum

Its not an insult, Its an accurate representation.

How did you feel when other posters were telling all men (so every man in the entire world) to FUCK OFF earlier? I assume you were equally incensed? Shame you didn't express it. It must have slipped your mind.

That's a good idea, the problem is that we have listened to Spaghetti she is coming across like a cartoon character feminist drawn by Donald Trump.

Rather personal. How so? What exactly has she said that gives rise to that? Expressing opinions that differentiate her from a doormat perchance?

I’ll take my seat on the cartoon feminist bench alongside her then, since I agree with her. Budge up, spaghetti

His inner bitch is always lurking just beneath the surface.

I have read all your responses Patriarchy and I’ve come to the conclusion that you are enjoying provoking Spaghetti and are getting some kind of kick out of it.

Your tone is dismissive and patronising (whether you realise it or not) and resorting to childish insults is never an appropriate way to behave.