Nearly every mass killer is a man. Why aren’t we talking about that?

[CircleSquareCircleSquare]

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/26/mass-killer-toronto-attack-man-men?

“After the Toronto attack, there should be a debate about toxic masculinity, and the issues of identity and rage that turn so many men towards violence”

I don’t dare to read the comments.

Well at least that's something a bit different anyway Patriarchy. You're just coming across as a typical man I'm afraid, just repeating all the same things over and over.

Why does male violence persist? Because you're probably about as good as it gets, as men go. What hope is there?

How did you feel when other posters were telling all men (so every man in the entire world) to FUCK OFF earlier? I assume you were equally incensed? Shame you didn't express it. It must have slipped your mind.

Spaghetti didn’t tell “every man in the entire world” to FUCK OFF. She told men who minimise and dismiss genuine and real concerns as not their problem to FUCK OFF. I am well aware there are good and decent men in the world, I was raised by one, I live with one and hopefully I will raise 2. But they’re not the men we are discussing here, the men we are discussing here are the ones who are violent, who cause harm, who demean, abuse and attack women. I see you’ve resorted to patronising me too, how wonderfully unoriginal.

Men who fail to see the problem, acknowledge it and actively try to change things are part of the problem. “Big boys don’t cry” “be a man” “man up”, pub culture, toxic masculinity, these are all part of the problem that leads to the extreme statistics shown upthread.

Men as a class are responsible for more violence.

The response to that statement is NOT to start talking about you and how you are not violent and how your feelings are hurt. The statement was not about you as an individual. It was about men as a class, how men and the society they built is violent. To say ‘I’m not violent. I acknowledge that men as a class are’ is enough

When someone talks about racism I dont go on and on about how I personally am not a racist and thus racism isn’t an issue. I acknowledge that I, to the best of my knowledge am not racist. But that I see my life and the world around me through the lives experience of being white and so possibly, just possibly, the person who has experienced these things might have a point. I know I’m not racist. I also know that white propel as a class have created a society that benefits them and that I also benefit from that setup.

I don’t need to take on the guilt alone, but I do need to acknowledge the problem exists and be open to ways of changing that society for the better. From people who understand the problem better than I do.

When someone talks about racism I dont go on and on about how I personally am not a racist and thus racism isn’t an issue. I acknowledge that I, to the best of my knowledge am not racist. But that I see my life and the world around me through the lives experience of being white and so possibly, just possibly, the person who has experienced these things might have a point. I know I’m not racist. I also know that white propel as a class have created a society that benefits them and that I also benefit from that setup

This!b

Don’t know where the b came from, sorry

I am personally not a racist and therefore racism is not an issue

Bloody hell! For the umteempth time on this thread alone.

Nobody has said that sexism or racism or male violence etc are not issues

This continues to be the main thrust of your entire argument, and yet it's not a position that anyone has taken in this entire discussion!

This continual misrepresentation of everyone else's position to fit your narrative and create a straw man is depressing to say the least.

I mean you would fail a GCSE Critical Thinking essay if you did it there.

@PatriarchyPersonified genuine question, can you honestly not see that you’ve been dismissive and unconcerned when women on here have explained our viewpoints?

No, the thrust of my argument is that when someone points out that the class of people of which you’re a member has an issue with something, you don’t deflect.

You acknowledge the issue and acknowledge that you, as a person of that privileged class, might listen to members of said oppressed class for their opinions, experiences and suggestions on solving said problem.

I’m still wondering what a cartoon feminist looks like. Do enlighten me.

Babel

Oppressed/oppressor

Ok. Here lies the root of the entire problem.

This.

You are not oppressed.

See my post near the beginning of the thread about the 'Patriarchy'. You seem like an intelligent person, how can you buy into this infantilising nonsense?

There is no idea on earth you could push that would be more effective at holding women back and more damaging to your long term goals than the idea of the 'Patriarchy'

You are not oppressed

Horseshit. Unmitigated horseshit. Gender pay gap, violence against women, day to day bullshit sexism (which you have no understanding of), piss poor maternity pay/pensions, being dismissed by men who aren’t interested.

You can say something over and over again. It doesn’t make it true. The fact you are denying there is any issue at all tells me you’re just here to wind up women who have many valid points, articulately voiced, because you find it funny.

That makes your username pretty apt, no?

Smeddum

You can say something over and over again, it doesn't make it true

Apt.

Do you seriously expect women on a feminist board to agree with you that patriarchy doesn't exist/isn't a problem Patriarchy??

You are not oppressed

Utter, utter bollocks. How can you possibly say this? Do you honestly believe that women as a class are. Or oppressed by men? Women as a class are oppressed as a result of our biology

We are subjected to rape, violence, and oppression on a global scale. Domestic violence is predominantly against women. Women are paid less than men, treated unfavourably even in the UK in almost all interactions with the legal system (Ulster rape case anyone?)
We are smaller, weaker and thus the target for violence.

In many countries we are still the property of men.

How can you look at the news and say women are not oppressed? Tell that to the chibok girls, to the yazidi women, to the First Nations women in Canada killed solely for being women. To the girls in ciudad Juarez killed solely for being women. To the victims of FGM.

If you genuinely think women are not oppressed by men you are living in some naive cloud cuckoo land.

@PatriarchyPersonified uh huh.

You’re not doing a single thing to improve anyone’s opinion of men in general. But then I suspect you know that and are probably sitting typing furiously awfully pleased with yourself aren’t you?

Here’s a hint, you’re neither as clever nor as witty as you think you are.

Spaghetti

I'm not surprised you don't agree. Surely that's the whole point though? Opposing opinions?

Like I said, the idea of 'The Patriarchy' is common on a feminist discussion board, but it's not a commonly accepted idea within actual society. Because its bollocks.

Babel

If 'The Patriarchy' was so obvious, why are women like you who say it exists in a significant minority? Genuine question?

Either the entire rest of the world is wrong, or a niche group of Radical Feminists are. What do you think is the most likely answer?

Now if we can get past this retrograde, infantilising idea of oppression, we can actually address the problems that some women face.

Like I said, the idea of 'The Patriarchy' is common on a feminist discussion board, but it's not a commonly accepted idea within actual society

It is. It’s just you who says it isn’t and men who have the same mindset as you.

If 'The Patriarchy' was so obvious, why are women like you who say it exists in a significant minority? Genuine question?

We’re not, but given that the mainstream media is controlled by men, it’s not surprising that you don’t know that.

Now if we can get past this retrograde, infantilising idea of oppression, we can actually address the problems that some women face

For a man who has spent the last however long dismissing, patronising and flat out ignoring women who are trying to address the issues caused by men, that statement is just utterly ludicrous.

Patriarchy, including me I know five women who have been raped and didn't report it. Why? Because we knew that there was no way we'd get justice, we'd just get dragged through the courts, ridiculed and interrogated with our sexual histories scrutinised and multiple attempts made to make us out as liars and sluts out to destroy men's lives. There is just no point in trying to look for justice, not in the culture that we live in. There are millions of other women in the same situation around the world - subject to male violence with no hope of it ever being dealt with.

Every single woman I know has been a victim of some sort of sexual violence in her life, from groping to sustained, long term sexual abuse.

I and a lot of my friends have been subject to blatant sexism in the workplace - in one case I was told I would get a particular project but not if I pitched for it myself, I should send my husband because the person we would be pitching to 'is sexist and doesn't listen to women.' Therefore I would have lost out on a significant piece of income not because my work wasn't good (they did want to work with me) but solely because I was a woman. (I walked away at that point).

How is that not oppression?

I do have a morbid curiosity about what you think is going on in the world patriarchy - why do you think the problems women face exist? (I know I'm going to regret asking).

If 'The Patriarchy' was so obvious, why are women like you who say it exists in a significant minority? Genuine question?

Addressed up thread. Men with the same ridiculous and dangerous viewpoint as you have done a PR job on the word feminist. When you actually ask women about issues you get a different picture.

What do you get from hanging out on feminist boards telling feminists there’s no need for feminism by the way?

What do you think the millions of women who have undergone FGM, the yazidi, the chibok girls, women in KSA, the murdered girls in ciudad Juarez and Canada are victims OF then? Puppy traffickers? Lone wolf killers?
Or a system where men who hate or just don’t think women are people sometimes kill, maim and enslave them?

It doesn't seem that surprising to me that in a male dominated world, a concept that challenges that dominance, ie feminism, is painted as ridiculous and something that not all women believe in. If feminism is ridiculous and pointless why are men bothered about it at all? Why not leave us to it?

Strangely enough, for all their banging on about how feminism doesn't mean anything, men seem to get pretty exercised about it and seem determined to discredit it and stop it. I wonder why?

Babel

Again with the misrepresentation... I've never said there is no need for feminism.

I have said that radical feminist ideas of Patriarchy are unhelpful and retrograde.

I addressed your point about the 'PR job' that men (obviously) have done on feminism earlier.

Every thread I have ever been on has ended with me being told that equality etc is the 'rubbish type of feminism' and that revolutionary smashing of the Patriarchy and societal structures is key. And sticking it to the nasty men obvs.

If your looking for a PR disaster for Radical Feminism, then look no further than your own team.

Feminism = Great idea.

Rad Fem = not so much.

You don't seem to understand what radical feminism is.

What’s your understanding of radical feminism? Because it doesn’t seem to accord with mine