Joanna Lumley is terrified for men

[QuentinSummers]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43884163
Can't decide if her quote has been blown out of all proportion by the BBC or if she's genuinely terrified for men's egos, the poor lambs.

I also can't believe this is news.

I see the concern trolls are still around - dismissing women's experience and making false accusations of women wanting to be victims

how they out their true colours with the same boring MO

Trashing women's spaces and women is for losers

Echo chamber!

Just thought I'd save them the trouble.

AAK your point is very pertinent - men who deny women's reality are at grave risk of setting their daughters up to be used and abused because they aren't prepared for it - consciously or not - it's a common dangerous pattern

I agree that politician should avoid making policy based on subjective feelings. You can’t legislate for the fact that women feel unsafe. But you can tackle the sexual violence that is so endemic in our country that people can’t even see it. It is helpful to know that this phenomenon should not simply be taken at face value, but should be considered in terms of the way it makes women behave. This is where theory is useful.

I can see just’s point - I think my life would be easier if I pretended there wasn’t a problem

Telling your daughters the truth about obstacles they may encounter is also destroying all hope

I have often thought reading threads on FWR I am glad I never heard the negativity expressed on here when I was a teenager. And I am neither a troll or a man.

I think my life would be easier if I pretended there wasn’t a problem

I can't comment on what your life is like. I did comment on that post about high status jobs losing their status once women break in to them. Is any young woman really meant to take that seriously?

Lass there is a huge amount of evidence that that is true. I'm not going to look it up for you though because you'll find some other way to stick your fingers in your ears and shout 'not listening!!' over and over.

Yes spag, - all those women in law and medicine whose status is now no better than the office cleaner.

You are comparing the wrong thing lass
As more women enter a profession it becomes devalued compared to when it was mainly men. (Teaching, medicine, law)
As more men enter a profession the opposite happens. (Computer programming)

It's not about the value falling to other traditionally women's jobs. It's about it falling comparatively to when men dominated.

Lass, you're not stupid, so why are you making statements that imply you don't understand simple concepts. You know that's not what is meant. Come on.

You are comparing the wrong thing lass
As more women enter a profession it becomes devalued compared to when it was mainly men. (Teaching, medicine, law)

Again are you seriously saying law and medicine are devalued compared to say 50 years ago? Or for that matter teaching? That is patently nonsense and what a terrible thing to tell your daughters.

I'm serious- I'm glad no one told me the advice I see on here when I was a girl.

Lass, you're not stupid, so why are you making statements that imply you don't understand simple concepts. You know that's not what is meant. Come on

I'm not the one trying to argue law and medicine have lost their status. Stupid, wrong and a ridiculous message to give any girl or woman.

Oh you really don't understand. Sorry.

Again are you seriously saying law and medicine are devalued compared to say 50 years ago? Or for that matter teaching?
Yes. Less well paid anyway. And teaching is definitely devalued compared to when I was at school. Teachers work all the hours God sends but still get told they have long holidays and short days. They are disrespected and not treated like professionals by the government.

You might not like this but it's true. As a pp said, there is research into it.

mobile.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html

www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-216682568.html (this is the actual report)

Studying law and medicine at uni is still seen as pretty prestigious, I agree. The difference comes when the students enter the professions.

In medicine, there is an over-representation of women in areas such as general practice. These are seen as comparatively low status compared to e.g. surgery, where men are over-represented.

In law, certain areas of law are dominated by women, notably crime, family and private client. Incidentally, these are given the lowest status and the lowest pay. Family law is often described by snobby commercial lawyers as 'not really law' and 'social work'. It is horrendously devalued. Only around 20% of QCs are women and women are far less likely to be partners in law firms.

Therefore, although there may be 50% entry to law and medicine, they do not get equal status at the end of it.

Also, you might think that women make a choice as to which areas of law or medicine they go into, but this ignores that the professions are structured so as to exclude women from the more prestigious areas.

For example, corporate law is very male-dominated, with lots of networking events such as golf-days or football. Women are much less likely than men to play golf or even be encouraged to take it up. It's not just golf- it's other types of networking and social events with clients that are very male-orientated. Women simply do not 'fit in'. They are therefore implicitly excluded from a major part of the business and from networking. Hours are long and not family friendly. Women with childcare responsibilities are less likely to be given good cases and are therefore much less likely to be promoted.

It's the same with medicine. Surgeons are expected to do crazy hours (there actually isn't really a need for this as such, it's just an expectation). Again, it is structured around a worker who is assumed to have no responsibilities outside of work. A male surgeon is very likely to have a partner or wife to do all the childcare and housework. Women less so. Instead, they are effectively pushed into the more family-friendly world of being a GP.

In both cases, there is not express exclusion or discrimination against women. The professions proclaim themselves to value equality. However, the actual conditions make it much easier for men to thrive than women.

It wasn't pointedly directed at you @Spaghettijumper it's just a general observation. Of course on a personal level I have no reason not to believe you, and I sympathise. However I'm going to maintain a natural and healthy skepticism as another person's 'lived experience' should never override your own reason and critical thought. That's in large part why we are left with the current transgender activists assault on women's liberties. You have to understand that if you use a certain rhetorical trick to shut down opposition you are setting a precedent for it to be used by your ideological opponents.

Fwiw I think a tonne of mediocre men use the policies of all women shortlists or equalities legislation to justify their own lack of success and I make the same case to them. Success always requires ambition, drive and a willingness to overcome hurdles. My current lean and I'm by no means certain of this completely is women's choices do lead to this disparity we are seeing rather than workplaces being hotbeds of sexism and discrimination. Does sexism and misogyny still exist in the world of work? Undoubtedly, but I don't think it's as big a slice of the problem as many believe it to be.

The root is to me is that women are discouraged from ambition and drive, if I compare women I know who were privately educated to those who don't, more go into stem, more of them fly higher. I'm willing to bet we all know a shit tonne of women who are highly competent, but have a compromised sense of self worth and appraisal of their own abilities, perhaps some are posting on this very thread.

You can call it victim blaming if you like and ultimately it probably is, but it's meant more in the cruel to be kind sense. I'd like to end up in the same place with more female representation throughout all layers of society, because I do agree it is a problem that needs solving. It is however an eminently solvable one, by virtue of womankind's natural potential and capabilities. I also think that this constant focus on the unfairness of it all, and all the evil men taking all the best jobs mentality robs a lot of women of hope and hands a victory straight to the patriarchy on a silver platter.

@JustOneMan whilst I'm mostly sympathetic to your position I do hope you will take the time to educate your daughters of the physical threat some men will pose to them in their personal lives, to not do that would be distinctly unwise.

I also think that this constant focus on the unfairness of it all, and all the evil men taking all the best jobs mentality

Where have you come across this mentality? Because in all my years as a feminist, reading feminist texts and speaking to other feminists I've never come across it. It's certainly not a mentality I have.

I need to remain fully-functional in order to support my family.

Er, so does everyone who has a family. That's not just a male problem.

Sorry I'm miles behind, but when Justone was still on the thread and mansplaining how it's not just women who are scared of men and have to adapt their behaviour, I was reminded of that bit of research done on manspreading, which shows that it's the most dominant male in the room, who spreads widest and takes up the most space. When he comes in, the previous most dominant man puts his legs together a bit and when they go out, the third in line spreads out further, etc.

In other words, while I completely accept that Justone and other men have to modify their behaviour in the presence of other men, what he is missing is that when it comes to women, the need for behaviour modification is less. The man who may keep quiet in a meeting where there are only other men, gets the chance to wax lyrical in a meeting where most of the attendees are women.

They will learn what they live not what you tell them. Yes. If only it were enough to just teach our kids to be confident and assured. Sexism and racism wouldn't exist if that were all there is to it.

In law, certain areas of law are dominated by women, notably crime, family and private client. Incidentally, these are given the lowest status and the lowest pay

Are you actually in law? There are so many sweeping generalisations and inaccuracies in your posts that I don't know where to start.

So far as private client having "low status" I'm not strictly private client but in a very niche sector which interacts very closely with private client.

"Private client" is for clients with private wealth- no faffing around with legal aid applications (I've never actually seen one). Clients who pay rack rates , are repeat multi generation business feeding into other departments. Yeah , really low status.

Are you actually in law? There are so many sweeping generalisations and inaccuracies in your posts that I don't know where to start.

Not currently, but I am a qualified solicitor with quite a few years PQE, thank you very much. It is entirely true that those areas are dominated by women. By private client, I mean wills and probate (not necessarily HNW) but agree that the issue is not as great there as it is in criminal and family, both of which are woefully underpaid unless you happen to work somewhere like Withers. Interesting that you missed that off completely when talking about my 'generalisations'.

The other area that I didn't mention and perhaps I should have used that instead of private client is of course immigration and social welfare. Again, female-dominated and very poor pay.

I did not mean to offend about low status (and as I say, I mean the bog standard wills and probate work rather than working for the landed gentry) but if you are a lawyer yourself, you must be aware of the lack of gender diversity in the profession and the lack of women at the top. It is entirely true that certain areas are female-dominated and those do not tend to pay well and they do not tend to have a high status (we will exclude PC from that then).

It is equally true that within medicine, there is an under-representation of women in the prestigious areas and an over-representation in the less prestigious areas.

I don't think this is particularly controversial.

I have been a qualified solicitor since 1982. Apart from a couple of years in local government all my experience has been in the upper end of private practice. It amuses me a lot to see some of the nonsense that gets talked on FWR about what life is like in a legal office. "Lived experience " of course counts for nothing unless it validates how down trodden women are.

I wonder what the 2 female associates who are lined up to take over from me and 2 of my female partners when we retire in the next 5 years would make of this thread.

I'm so glad nobody gave me the advice being given on this and similar threads when I was a teenager. Telling your daughters that law and medicine no longer has a high status is irresponsible in the extreme.

Make way for the straw men coming through!!