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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Joanna Lumley is terrified for men

152 replies

QuentinSummers · 25/04/2018 07:29

www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-43884163
Can't decide if her quote has been blown out of all proportion by the BBC or if she's genuinely terrified for men's egos, the poor lambs.

I also can't believe this is news.

OP posts:
LastGirlOnTheLeft · 25/04/2018 23:44

I concur with Susan too...but most men won't be aware of this.

thebewilderness · 26/04/2018 00:48

Would any one of us here REALLY want to live the existence (that's all it is...it's not a life) of an angry little man?

They make that choice as we all do when they compare their world view to material reality. We either adjust our world view to reflect the world as it is or reject reality for a belief system that is the path to perpetual resentment.

AsAProfessionalPenis · 26/04/2018 01:01

She should go and have a drink with India Willoughby. IW is worried about men too
They would have a lot to discuss

LassWiADelicateAir · 26/04/2018 05:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn as it quoted another withdrawn post.

thebewilderness · 26/04/2018 05:54

Always happy to provide an eyeroll to the resident curmudgeon.

LassWiADelicateAir · 26/04/2018 08:08

We often get the question why do so few women say they are feminists. For me posts like yours on here are the answer. It is not just the assertion that all men are responsible for other men's behaviour but the dismissal of other women's opinions.

0phelia · 26/04/2018 18:10

All men do actually benefit whenever another man rapes or pays for sex or pays to watch a stripper with absolutely no consequences and everytime it happens women are blamed for their choices.

Men are able to look at the world from a vantage point meaning they know they can all get away with behaviour that may be ethically or morally questionable but if they want to, they can. Even if a man doesn't want to be violent or pay for sexual exploitation himself he knows he could if he ever wanted to. No man ever speaks out against the endemic mistreatment of women and this in itself speaks volumes.

JustOneMan · 26/04/2018 18:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

0phelia · 26/04/2018 18:40

Rapes with no consequences.

QuentinSummers · 26/04/2018 18:54

Absolutely right 0phelia and a man who is offended by that to the point of misquoting needs to have a good look at themselves

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JustOneMan · 26/04/2018 19:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

OrchidInTheSun · 26/04/2018 19:22

JustOne - I'm curious. Did you read the thread? If you did, then the answer to your question is there.
If you didn't, read it. Because it answers your question.

And if you read it and are still asking that question, then you're not deserving of women's time, energy or attention.

SusanBunch · 26/04/2018 19:24

I don't think it's helpful to blame individual men. Yes, they benefit indirectly from the culture of women's oppression, but they are not able to do anything about it.

I also benefit hugely from the oppression of people of colour across the globe. I am white. I am not a racist, I hate racism, I call out racism when I see it. I benefit from being white in that I will not be subjected to racism or discrimination for skin colour. However, what can I realistically do to change it? And I might have other factors that mean that I don't feel privileged, such as being a woman, living in poverty, being disabled- you name it. So I may not feel particularly privileged, but I still am. And like the poster above, I just mind my own business and go about my daily life. Not much opportunity to change stuff.

This is why change needs to be at a much more fundamental, structural level. Men can't stop other men from raping, but what they can do is recognise that women are oppressed and help fight for the system to be changed by those in power. They can also start being more aware of the unequal structures and not complain that e.g. gender quotas will stop 'genuine talent' from prospering. If they organise an event, try to avoid an all-male speaking panel. Call out sexist 'banter' when you hear it, just as most normal people now would not tolerate racist banter. But at the end of the day, ordinary guys are not to blame- they just happen to benefit from it.

JustOneMan · 26/04/2018 19:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

0phelia · 26/04/2018 19:49

Susanbunch
Yes, they benefit indirectly from the culture of women's oppression, but they are not able to do anything about it

I disagree. They have the ability to, as outlined in the rest of your excellent post, they just don't want to.

What I found objectionable was the direct assertion that all men benefit

Well here's your obligatory NAMALT.
Most men do however benefit from a culture that enables them to see women as beneath them, and treat them accordingly. Obviously many are subject to harsh socioeconomic conditions and don't benefit from much, many are simply so pure and lovely all the time they don't even so much as look at porn or catcall.

SusanBunch · 26/04/2018 20:16

0phelia yes, OK, that's true. They can take steps to combat it, but we still need wider scale change.

I think the most important is don't deny there is a problem. Don't come up with your clever theories about the gender pay gap being due to women 'choosing' to jack their careers in. Don't say that the increase in sexual assault is due to women drinking too much and getting out of control. Don't pretend that the reason you got promoted over your equally qualified female colleague is just that you (and all the other men in senior positions) are just better. Don't talk about how boys and men are being let down by feminism and that women should just get back to the kitchen because life before 1980 was so fab and problem-free. When you start realising there is a problem, you can see small ways in which you can help out.

CritEqual · 26/04/2018 21:25

The thing is I just don't know. I'm not convinced by the arguments men are really benefitting from the rape/assault of women. As that whole argument hinges on it being better if women weren't in the workplace or competed with men as a whole.

In truth a little competition is better for everyone. I mean women quite blatantly aren't occupying representative positions in government and the higher echelons of big corporations. It basically means we're functioning at only a little over half capacity in terms of human potential. Men are still losing in that equation.

So too in the dating market, it's not at all unreasonable to eye up every man as a potential rapist. In that taking steps to try and stay safe takes precedence over hurting feelings, and besides no woman I know goes out trumpeting that fear 24/7. That in and of itself is going to be against the interests of any non-rapist/assaulting man, as it's going to be making the whole process of finding a partner incrementally more difficult.

I can see how 100% of sexist men might in accordance with thier own ideaology appreciate less competition, and seek to see women punished for enjoying healthy consensual sexual encounters in whatever form they may take, but I think to say all men benefit from sexism pre-supposes that ALL men are sexist/ and or subscribe to that ideology in some way. Which is the part I'm struggling with.

OrchidInTheSun · 26/04/2018 22:14

Ophelia said it for me. If you don't recognise the fact that you benefit from the subjugation of women then your part of the problem.

I'm white. I don't consciously discriminate against BAME people but I accept that I've had opportunities because I'm white that they haven't. I accept that their discrimination means I've benefited.

It's like two sides of a scale. If you understand that one side of the scale goes down, and you're not on that side, then the other side mush go up.

0phelia · 26/04/2018 22:42

but I think to say all men benefit from sexism pre-supposes that ALL men are sexist/ and or subscribe to that ideology in some way. Which is the part I'm struggling with

Here's your NAMALT too my dear...

thebewilderness · 26/04/2018 23:42

When you do a class analysis there are invariably people who point out that there is an exceptions somewhere so the entire class analysis is unfair.
Men as a class have benefited from their oppression of women as a class throughout history and to this day.
Why do you want to quibble over one of the many methods they use?

AskBasil · 27/04/2018 00:01

Of course all men benefit from rape.

The men who don't rape us and are horrified by the men who do, get to claim "super-nice-guy" status. I've lost count of the number of times I've felt grateful to a man for not raping me and gave them so much credit for being lovely people, when actually, they were just normal non-psychos. Men who speak out against rape, who make it clear that they don't blame women for rape, who support proper laws which stop them raping, get lauded and feted as secular saints, when actually, all they are is normal decent men. It's just that when compared with the rapists and the rapists' supporters, they get to look wonderful.

So if you're a normal decent man, you get to be considered wonderful. While normal decent women, are just normal.

That's one benefit.

LuisCarol · 27/04/2018 00:21

The thing is I just don't know. I'm not convinced by the arguments men are really benefitting from the rape/assault of women

Some men benefit from the lack of consequences for the men who rape. It's only taken 50 years, 60 women and 2 trials to convict Bill Cosby. That sends a message to a lot of men.

But all men benefit from a society that allows that to happen.

QuentinSummers · 27/04/2018 09:10

I think to say all men benefit from sexism pre-supposes that ALL men are sexist/ and or subscribe to that ideology in some way. Which is the part I'm struggling with.

Not at all. It is the same as what susan said about racism. A white person benefits from being white even if they aren't racist themselves.

Saying all men benefit from sexism doesn't mean all men are sexist.

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QuentinSummers · 27/04/2018 09:14

just

You need to look at why you are offended by the first part of 0phelias quote, to the extent you misquoted her.

She said All men do actually benefit whenever another man rapes or pays for sex or pays to watch a stripper with absolutely no consequences and everytime it happens women are blamed for their choices.

Her point is women get blamed for men's choices and that gives all men the freedom to make bad choices with no consequences, should they choose to.

Think about that, not about your hurt feelings.

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AskBasil · 27/04/2018 10:07

And if you make those bad choices, you are excused and your behaviour is minimised.

And if you don't, you are seen as uncommonly decent. When in fact, you ought to be considered only common or garden decent.

The bar to be considered a decent man, is incredibly low. You can be a low level sexist, misogynist git who exploits his wife and pulls rank on family decisions by very subtly using the earnings card which society has handed you unfairly and still be considered an exemplary husband and father. Women are exhorted that they're lucky to have you.

The bar to be considered a decent woman, is much, much higher. And it's much easier to be considered a terrible woman, than it is to be considered a terrible man.

You directly benefit from those double standards, whether you're aware that you're benefiting or not. You walk through life much more easily than a woman does. Both of you are generally unaware of just how much easier your life is.

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