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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

“Incel”

238 replies

Scribblegirl · 24/04/2018 18:29

Just come across this horrific phrase in the context of the Canadian attacks. I’ve always thought I was relatively aware but this completely passed me by.

Does anyone have any background resources they can share on the phrase/“movement”? Not sure I can face some of the murkier sites my first searches found.

OP posts:
IfNot · 28/04/2018 10:46

Great post Italian
Yes they do touch on porn in school but I also think it's up to all parents to also be honest with their kids. Although a lot of parents are also porn consumers, and I guess not everyone feels like I do on the subject.
I felt better last night after talking to a very old male friend about the whole thing. He used to be a porn consumer (not violent stuff though-he reckons you are either into that or you're not).
He said that he read and watched quite a bit about the porn industry and after opening his eyes to it he has no desire to view it any more. He reckoned it's been about 2 years since he has.
This is a man in his 40s, who didn't grow up with online porn, so I know 20 and 30 something men might be harder to get through to, but I was glad to hear that at least some men are becoming conscious about the industry.
Incidentally this guy is in no way an alpha male. He looks a bit like Steve Furst Grin and has a regular job, no car, no money but he has had lots of girlfriends (including me years ago) and is in a relationship. He may not be your typical "fit bloke" but he is intelligent and funny and self aware.
My dp is the same-I think he's gorgeous but I know objectively he's a bit odd looking! When I first met him I was not attracted to him, but he was interesting and witty and by the end of the night I was...very interested!
It's so sad that these men don't realise that how you look is such a small part of what makes a man attractive, and also that there are tons of nice single women out there.
But of course, they are not interested in their female counterparts, just some media generated image of what a girlfriend might be like.

IfNot · 28/04/2018 10:52

there is no acknowledgement that this is something women experience too

So true. My mum was single for, ooh, 20 years. She put her energies into gardening and helping people in the community, rather than mowing down men with a truck.
But older women should just expect to be celibate I suppose?

IfNot · 28/04/2018 10:56

I understand what you mean sweetheart. Infertility can really mess with your head, especially when you see others getting what you want so easily.
The difference is that you have the self awareness to rationalise your feelings, but its an interesting insight.
Sorry for what you have been going through. Flowers

Ereshkigal · 28/04/2018 11:01

Rufus

10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/6kkeni/theerulesoffmisogyny/

I'd say Adam's comment covers a number of the other rules.

Bowlofbabelfish · 28/04/2018 11:05

I agree greyhound

Although the cynic in me says that foot binding was abolished so that women could be fully enrolled in the workforce, and that the recent reforms in Saudi are the same - it’s not that women are suddenly respected more, it’s that they've realised that to modernise the economy they need women to participate in society fully.

Stil, once those women were out in the fields, are driving and participating we should see more societal change flow from that.

It was the war that I think made huge strides forward for women in this country.

Also agree completely that these guys blame it on their looks and that is a massive cop out. They do that because they can’t change it, whereas they CAN change how they react to women they just can’t/won’t.

The men I’ve dated (and married) have generally been the geekier type. Whatcattracted me was their intelligence, personality and decency- looks are a nice extra in my book.

Bowlofbabelfish · 28/04/2018 11:10

It is desperately unfair sweetheart - it’s also not under your control. Flowers Nothing you can do, no improvement to yourself (not saying you need improving!) would make any difference. It’s not your fault, and yes, your feelings of rage are valid.

But these men can change - they just don’t want to. So they blame a factor that can’t change (height, looks) because that absolves them of responsibility. It absolves them of looking deeply into themselves enough to make an improvement.

So the difference between your situation and theirs is that 1. You aren’t running people over and 2. There genuinely is nothing you yourself could do to change it - you have to rely on outside factors.

ReanimatedSGB · 28/04/2018 12:24

Religion is a far, far more toxic influence on woman-hating men than porn. Incels and MRAs tend to hate porn. (If you can stand it, look into the NoFap stuff - incels rejecting porn in order to... make themselves more muscular and appealing or something.) Several of the early MRAs were Jeeezus-jumpers and liked to fall back on their imaginary friend's insistence that women are subhuman and should be the property of men, compelled to obey, and there's still a strand of that running through the manosphere. MRAs are also violently oppposed to sex work and sex workers (have seen quite a bit on my social media from sex workers angry at the suggestion that incels should 'just pay for sex'; the sex workers don't want to have to deal with unfuckable hate nerds, either, and having them as clients would be immensely dangerous for any sex worker.)

Ereshkigal · 28/04/2018 12:26

I definitely wouldn't wish these men on any woman.

kesstrel · 28/04/2018 12:31

So they blame a factor that can’t change (height, looks) because that absolves them of responsibility.

I think it's because they imagine that women think the same way they do. Psychology studies show that men on average place far more importance on a prospective partner's looks than women do.

Bowlofbabelfish · 28/04/2018 12:49

Religion is definitely, or can definitely be a bad influence - but I really do think porn, the modern extreme abusive stuff that’s so prevalent now, is a massive issue.

It’s not just the content, it’s how accessible it is. I’m on my phone now just having a cuppa and knitting but should I wish to, I could access in a few clicks things that would have required a trip to a seedy shop even ten years ago.

And those phones, that access, are everywhere 24/7.

I’ve seen men watching hardcore porn in cafes Ffs, with the sound up. It makes it less ‘illicit’ and less likely to be confined to one time in the persons day. It’s ever present. That normalises it even more. So all this really violent against women material is just there, as easy to access as me checking the bbc or the bus timetables. The normalisation of that cannot be overstated.

I’m sure religion interacts with that to make it even more toxic by introducing Madonna/whore complexes and sequestering women. But porn in and of itself is a huge problem.

I wouldn’t have said that ten years ago. Maybe I just wasn’t as aware of it.

IfNot · 28/04/2018 13:48

10 years ago barely anyone had a phone good enough to watch porn. It's also become seen as normal that men watch it, like it's a natural part of being a man.
I do also agree that religious extremism is very harmful to women, and that men seek to control women's bodies for reasons other than porn. I watched with horror the other day as Matthew Wright did a segment on "should men have a say in abortion" where he argued in his snotty sixth form way that it is unfair that men have to pay for a child they didn't want..so, what? Forced abortion? Or forced birth if they want the child? Either way it's terrifying that anyone would even want to consider that, but there it is on daytime tv ffs.
From both ends of the spectrum too many men are seeing women and girls as property and/or objects. I am definitely seeing a lot of things differently as I mature. Well, age anyway Grin
I think I have been radicalised by the Internet. ShockWink

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 28/04/2018 13:52

I watched with horror the other day as Matthew Wright did a segment on "should men have a say in abortion" where he argued in his snotty sixth form way that it is unfair that men have to pay for a child they didn't want..so, what? Forced abortion? Or forced birth if they want the child?

Yup. 'Cos that's where the choice is for men. God forbid they actually weight up consequences before putting their penis in a woman. That might interfere with their god given right to sex.

Xenia · 28/04/2018 13:56

There have always been a lot around of men who cannot get women and some men who get a lot of women. These sorts of men tend not to be a huge problem as they tend not to be very competent at much anyway although the odd one might go on a killing spree. 5 of my grandfather's brothers never married nor had children (and his 3 sisters for that matter). The idea everyone has some kind of right to be attractive to the opposite sex or even that they should settle down and marry (plenty don't want to) is wrong.

We certainly need to watch out for these types however if they plan to damage women in whatever ways rather than just hiding in their bedrooms or having a moan at the pub with their friends. If they really want a partner they can find one. it might not be the top model like perfect woman they think they are entitled to but there will be someone for them if they get on with it.

KERALA1 · 28/04/2018 16:59

That's the thing I find odd - that these men feel entitled to have sex with someone like Kyle Jenner or similar and will accept nothing "less". I remember troll like boys at school being absolutely scathing about any girl less than model perfect. I am sure if they cheered up abit they could go out with a normal girl - their equivalent - but only Cindy Crawford in her prime is acceptable.

R0wantrees · 28/04/2018 20:21

It's worth following Mike Wendling (Twitter @mwendling ) from BBC Trending. He was interviewed on Woman's Hour segment about Incel/Manosphere etc & also referenced in Zoe Williams' Guardian Article
www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/25/raw-hatred-why-incel-movement-targets-terrorises-women

"It is part of the “manosphere”, but is distinguished from men’s rights activism by what Wendling – who is also the editor of BBC Trending, the broadcaster’s social media investigation unit – calls its “raw hatred. It is vile. It is just incredibly unhinged and separate from reality and completely raw.” It has some crossover with white supremacism, in the sense that its adherents hang out in the same online spaces and share some of the same terminology, but it is quite distinctive in its hate figures: Stacys (attractive women); Chads (attractive men); and Normies (people who aren’t incels, ie can find partners but aren’t necessarily attractive). Basically, incels cannot get laid and they violently loathe anyone who can."

SleightOfMind · 28/04/2018 21:50

It’s a real challenge, DS1, 17, is my PFB so has grown up in the internet years.
We’re close and talk a lot and some of the stuff he’s come out with has been quite upsetting tbh.
I think we’re getting there now ( helps that DH is very on board. We’ve got a DD and two little DSs too) .

4Chan and Reddit are very scary. I think most DCs do instinctively back away from crazy IRL or OL but, if they’re unhappy or struggling, it’s right there waiting to suck them in.

ohfortuna · 29/04/2018 01:49

sex workers don't want to have to deal with unfuckable hate nerds, either
unfuckable hate nerds should just have sex with other unfuckable hate nerds
some incel on incel action would surely be the best bet for these chaps :o

thebewilderness · 29/04/2018 02:17

@Rufustheconstantreindeer

1st rule of misogyny: Women are responsible for what men do.
2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
3rd rule of misogyny: Women speaking for themselves are exclusionary and selfish.
4th rule of misogyny: Women's opinions are violence against men thus male violence against women is justified.
5th rule of misogyny: Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.
6th rule of misogyny: Women who go around being female AT men by menstruating and breast feeding babies deserve punishment.
7th rule of misogyny: Women should always be grateful to men for everything.
8th rule of misogyny: Men are whatever men say they are and women are whatever men say they are.
9th rule of misogyny: Men always know the "real reasons" for everything women do and say.
10th rule of misogyny: The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad.
11th rule of misogyny: whatever women suffer from, it is worse when it happens to men.
12th rule of misogyny: Women's ability to recognize male behavior patterns is misandry.

RedToothBrush · 29/04/2018 07:41

Re: religion.

The internet and social media are spawning identity politics. A lot of this is due to a lack of a sense of belonging which in the past close local communities and religion often provided. As that has broken down, people have looked for that sense of belonging in online communities, by finding other like minded individuals. The communities that have developed, have social hierarchies, conventions and often their own unique vocabulary or phrases that have sprung from 'in jokes' or ideas. The shared experiences of these communities make some very insular. People within them share very personal information so other members often know more about someone than real life people. The intimacy is part of sense of belonging.

From there it doesn't take much for a community to make a jump from something which is healthy to something which is cult like and can turn rather sinister. Communities which are inward looking tend to be competitive, with various individuals and their supporters all trying to outdo others in a bid for power. The rules are set by the community consensus or moderator. In groups where there is no moderator, the only thing which controls the group is the groups tolerance and self moderation. The more extreme the group, the less likely there is for self moderation. Attempts to get others not in your clique to self moderate are difficult to launch as such individuals are deemed a threat to another's power. Its all about being 'right' and 'winning' an argument rather than having any context or sense of reality.

It tends to push things to extremes. I've seen online communities pretty much implode. The results are not pretty at all. Doxxing is more widespread than I think people realise. There is a sense that law does not apply especially when communities are international. No one knows who is really responsible for criminal harassment and even when the police are involved, they tend to be powerless and the emphasis is on the harassed individual to leave the community rather than action be taken against offenders.

The effect the effective expulsion of an individual has, is to embolden those who forced it, and to give them more power and influence within the group. Unrest and opposition to actions is silenced. Members take the view that it is better to shut up and put up than no longer belong and to lose all the emotional investment and friends they have gained. People repeat what others have said and eventually stop questioning it as they become radicalised. Questioning is viewed as personal criticism because an attack on the group is seen as an attack on the person as their own identity is so interwoven into the fabric of the group through their sense of belonging. The unjustifiable become justifiable in the name of preserving the group. The indefensible becomes defensible in the interests of the greater cause.

As a rule communities with female members tend to moderate themselves better. Simply because women are socialised to defuse situations and stop them from escalating out of control. This can also work against women as they become seen as obstructive and often almost shields for male rivals.

The same patterns repeat over and over. Under the right conditions, communities become like religions. They lack plurality and they do act like cults. In some cases they become so ingrained into the mentality and psychology of a person that I do think religious belief in certain things like incel ideology does exist.

Its no coincidence that gaming communities have experienced problems earlier than other communities.

On twitter you see the fostering of these communities through echo chambers. People who only follow the same people who hold the 'correct' beliefs and shut out everything else are most vulnerable to it. Imo, the Labour party has actively developed a problem along these lines. The TRAs are another clear one. Nigel Farage developed one. Its all over the political spectrum and its getting worse not better. The issue is they are extremely difficult forces to control once they get out of hand.

What I find interesting here on MN is so many expressing a sense of political homelessness and lack of belonging or tribal loyalty. I personally find that somewhat refreshing and a bit of a relief. But it also troubles me too...

SimonBridges · 29/04/2018 08:23

Very interesting and well written post Red. I’d never thought about these online communities taking the place of religion.

RedToothBrush · 29/04/2018 08:33

Don't get me wrong. A lot of communities are great, healthy and supportive and can do good.

I have been part of online communities longer than most. I started in 1997 and met people long before it was socially acceptable. I have retained several friendships for nearly that long. I met DH through one.

Its just there is a real dark side to it too. One that a lot of people have no knowledge nor experience of and are only just beginning to see.

The idea that only weirdos can be online radicalised is wrong. Its not just happening on sites which support Islamic terrorism, and we really need to shake this mentality.

GnotherGnu · 29/04/2018 08:45

There's a degree of irony in thinking that the answer to a lack of women willing to have sex with you is to kill women, so that there are even fewer women available. But then intelligence is presumably not these men's hallmark, I'm guessing.

LangCleg · 29/04/2018 09:10

RedToothBrush

I absolutely agree that online communities and/or identity politics are taking the place of religion in increasingly secularised Western societies.

We do need social glue as a species, I feel, and I think the atomised lives led by people in increasingly technological societies also adds to this. It's another reason you find identity politics taking a stronger hold in cities than it does in small towns and rural communities, which still maintain that real life social glue and so don't require alternatives.

R0wantrees · 29/04/2018 09:14

Catherine Bennett writes,
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/29/violent-misogyny-not-confined-to-internet-incels
(extract)
"In the days since the Canadian man murdered 10 people, a good deal of attention, including glossaries of special terms, has focused on the peculiarities of “incel” online behaviour. Here, the standard misogynistic repertoire – “you deserve to be raped”, etc – is ornamented, a bit, with coinages such as femoids. But actually, so what? To many social media users, neither the language nor the sentiments expressed in posts such as the one above, however far along the woman-hating continuum, are likely to look radically out of the ordinary.

Apart from anything, Jack the Ripper, who would now be the toast of angry celibates, had the disembowelling idea 130 years ago. And further demonstrating that misogynistic tropes are by no means the monopoly of resentful male virgins, curators at San Francisco library are currently staging an exhibition featuring a display of dissident-silencing weaponry (axes and bats) and other hate-advertising artefacts.

Photographs of one vitrine, featuring a red bespattered T-shirt reading: “I punch terfs!” (trans-exclusionary radical feminists/women who disagree with me), may have struck a chord with anyone following the current UK debate about the government’s self-ID proposals. To date, threats, from one side, which echo, inescapably, some of those in the pro-Rodger playbook (“die in a fire terf scum”) have yet to generate comparably widespread concern, even after a woman was punched. Her assailant had earlier expressed the wish to “fuck up some terfs”"

Italiangreyhound · 29/04/2018 09:47

@SweetheartNeckline the desire for a baby is a very normal biological desire built into us to continue our species . The desire for sex is a very natural biological desire built into us to continue our species.

However, a very big difference is that you would not (I feel sure) wish to hurt another woman in your desire for a baby, and certainly would not hurt (I feel sure) a baby in your desire for a baby. However some men will and can and do hurt women in their desire for sex.

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