Transing children

[Pratchet]

Brace doctor breaks cover and warns of the dangers

Link ploppers

Perfect

So nearly 90% of 'trans kids' do not grow up to be trans adults

I cannot think of any other disorder or condition where the 12% chance of something non lethal happening in five years time would want permanently physically changing Therapy applied to a child.
Even childhood cancers with a similar rate of relapse are not automatically treated with regimens past a certain toxicity.

How and why is this allowed to happen to children?

It also shows you I think how many children are, quite rightly, unhappy with gender expectations. They see modern freedoms and wonder why the fuck they can’t do x because they’re a girl or a boy. They’re under huge pressure from advertisers, from popular culture to act a certain way, to be a certain way and that little silo of ‘normal’ is narrowing rapidly.

I look back at the music (and thus I suppose ‘cool’ people’ I had access to as a teen and it was all men in tea dresses, or ripped jeans. Or make up. Or not. Or women with shaved heads. Or long hair. Or shitloads of make up. Or not. Basically SO MANY ways to express yourself. Nirvana, adam ant, the cure, culture club, Delores o Riordan, punks, goths, everything. Now it’s so narrow.

I’m not surprised kids are confused. But I am very disturbed, and very angry, that people are telling them they’re being a girl wrong, so they must be a boy.

The roles have become so narrow that almost nobody can squeeze themselves into them without severe discomfort. Is it any wonder that kids are looking for a way out?

The way out they're being offered is like trying to cure a torn nail (painful but not lethal and will most likely eventually resolve itself if given time) by amputating the attached arm.

And not only narrow but narrow in a very sexualised way. Look at the teenage girls - long straightened hair, similar clothes, similar make up. It’s a very male fantasy look.

And for boys there’s none of the pop culture driven idea that we had that they can wear makeup or dress outlandishly and be boys. Again it’s a narrow, very grown up man look.

I can see why kids don’t want it. It’s a rejection of a sudden move into the world of adult sexuality. No space to explore, no space to be yourself or piss around with different looks.

It’s narrow, it’s sexualised and then they’re pressurised more into ‘changing gender.’

It’s so fucked up. These kids are going to launch some epic lawsuits in a few years.

I have a teenage dd (13) , who had a jaw length bob in primary school but now in secondary has grown it because virtually every girl in her year has long hair. I don’t let her wear makeup to school but many of them wear foundation, painted brows, and do that pouty thing into their ‘phones. They are so young, but it is clear the pressure to look sexy is there already. I really feel for this generation of girls. Friend was telling me that her niece says “all my friends are virgins, they just have anal sex “ this is sixth formers. I was . Porn is destroying sex and relationships. I am dreading my dds dating tbh. I would not want to be a girl in this culture, I can see why so many girls, especially those with ASD, would want to be boys. It is heartbreaking.

Couldn’t agree more about the porn sirVix :(

Friends with pre teen and teen kids are negotiating this right now - boys who want to choke and do anal. Girls who think sex is something ‘done to’ them. Coercion, pressure for naked pics...Awful. Awful pressure, just hideous.

All these desistance myths pushed forward by those desperate to rally against trans people, you do realise the diagnosis criteria changed in 2013 to help exclude Gender non-conforming children from studies of trans children?

Since 2013 onwards there is not a single study that suggests desistance is anything more than 4%.

As ever it is those involved in trans care that are looking out for GNC and trans kids, and those who try to oppose and attack trans care are not the ones actually helping to study this.

It is precisely down to those involved in trans care that there is a long term study in progress called the 'trans youth project' the biggest longitudinal study to see exactly what happens, using the 2013 criteria, so far though early days, none have desisted.
If trans care was so invested in lies how come they are the ones carrying out this study in full public view.

The argument about GNC kids getting caught up in trans treatment, is 100% based in total misunderstanding of how the diagnosis criteria has moved forward and improved, due to studies.

All these desistance myths pushed forward by those desperate to rally against trans people,

How is having grave concerns over the health, premature sexualisation and stereotyping of children ‘being desperate to rally against trans people’ ?

How can the argument of GNC kids being caught up possibly be a myth when 88% of kids end up not sticking with the trans label post puberty?

Kids are being failed by all this. With permanent consequences

crispbuttyfan
Since 2013 onwards there is not a single study that suggests desistance is anything more than 4%.
Can you tell me which studies from 2013 and later show a low rate of desistance? I'm struggling to find any articles which do not just refer back to pre-2013 studies.

To repeat, the desistance myths that you are repeating about 80% trans kids desisting,m are because they are pre 2013 studies, and 80% were likely not trans but GNC, they didn't desist post puberty, they were never trans to begin with, if you paid any attention to actual trans studies you would know this.

Kids who were a bit gender fluid, or some boys not being masculine enough in the opinion of a parent could be sent to these gender clinics.

Then they changed the diagnostic criteria, to exclude those GNC kids, to make sure only trans kids were treated as trans.

And there is no study post 2013 that shows 80% of trans kids desist.

The information is all out there, the explanations are all out there, and even the studies that most desisted showed those that didnt by late adolescence continued to trans throughout life.

This isn't new or rocket science, you just have to pay attention to what the trans community is telling you, instead of trying to peaktrans people with decades old studies and misrepresentation.

Trans kids and by extension trans people are far less into stereotyping than cis people, again trans people can tell you this, but like on these feminist boards, and twitter etc, some people are just flat out determined to deny trans peoples opinions and lived realities when there is flawed understanding and nonsense to spread.

I agree children are being failed. I was reading some posts by a teenage girl on twitter that made me tearful. She was getting angry about pronouns, I can’t remember what her choice was tbh. But the confusion, the delusional thinking, the outrage that she couldn’t police the people at her college who weren’t complying with her choice, it was so sad. Feminism has tried so hard for so long to tell both boys and girls that they can have any sort of personality, and yet somehow there is now this extreme notion that sex itself is determined by personality. It is so regressive, and scary. I also wonder why most adult trans people keep their sex organs intact, and don’t take hormones, but the push is to get children onto blockers ? Is this all aesthetics ? Aesthetic choices being made by adults for children, even though those choices could destroy their fertility and damage both their bodies and their health ?

Actually, I think I know why there may be less desistance in recent years from some of the patient cases in this article 'Advances in the Care of Transgender Children and Adolescents'

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4955762/

Patient 1: 11 year old boy. Puberty blockers given. Female hormones started at 14. Surgery at 18.

Patient 2: 10 year old girl. Puberty blockers given. Testosterone at 15, surgery at 19.

The push to get children on blockers is an attempt (usually successful) to lock them in to a trans identity.

Transing children is an attempt (usually successful) to validate the 'born this way' narrative.

To repeat, the desistance myths that you are repeating about 80% trans kids desisting,m are because they are pre 2013 studies, and 80% were likely not trans but GNC

That's a large part of the point. They met the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria

wonders how I can spell this out any more

80% were likely not trans but GNC, they didn't desist post puberty, they were never trans to begin with, if you paid any attention to actual trans studies you would know this.

That’s a circular argument though. You’re now redefining trans as ‘anyone who remains of that opinion post puberty’ but the input to that cohort included GNC kids who didn’t. Then you exclude them post facto? Medical research doesn’t work like that. Honestly, I do it for a living.

It would be like me running a clinical trial for a cancer medication, admitting anyone wothout a proven and specific diagnosis then claiming my snake oil worked because 88% survived when only 10% had the correct diagnosis in the first place.

Your input sample composition is what it is. You can’t then go back and say oh well, yeah actually those kids were never trans in the first place 🤦🏻‍♀️

God it’s like ducking witches to see if they float...

And now they are fully social transitioned and treated with puberty blockers and affirmed and the percentage apparently drops? Yes it could be because gender clinics are better at diagnosing. But it could also be that giving children puberty blockers and pretending they're the opposite sex leaves them very little other option.

Sorry Babel my second post was following on from my first just under yours, not a response to your (excellent) post.

crispbuttyfan
And there is no study post 2013 that shows 80% of trans kids desist.
In case you missed my earlier request, can you give some details or links to post 2013 studies which show desistance rates?

You state that the diagnostic criteria have recently changed, which means, I presume, that the 80% or so of desisters would no longer be diagnosed with gender dysphoria.

If this is the case, I would expect a much lower number of children to be diagnosed with dysphoria at present, compared to the number in earlier years. The numbers should have dropped by about 80%. I am pretty sure this is not the case.

They met the diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria

Actually erish you summarised it in a nutshell! :)

They met the diagnostic criteria. That’s exactly the key point.

And yes, if you treat kids irreversibly what on Earth other option do they have?

The sheer disregard for medical ethics is breathtaking.

What everyone else is saying. The affirmative path of social transition, blockers and cross sex hormones creates persistence.

crisp - I suggest you look up the word iatrogenic in a dictionary and reflect upon the definition.

Proselytising for adults and their inner identities should be kept far, far away from involving other people's kids.

No one here is desperate to rally against trans people

Stop making shit up

I’ve just read this entire thread. I am so thankful that I found this board last year when I was trying to sort out my thoughts on so many things.

In the ASD girls group that I find most supportive and affirming of my experiences with my autistic girl there is a rule about supporting girls who transition. We cannot talk there at all about the link between asd and ‘coming out as male’. But we must, surely. Because our girls are latching onto the idea that being a boy/male will make the dissonance they are experiencing disappear. The descriptions of autistic brains as extreme male brains don’t help. Nor does the belief that girls and boys can’t be friends past puberty. Which seems to be a factor too - these are my friends and we like to do stereotypical boy things together, I must be a boy. The logic is captivating.

At 4 my daughter wanted very short hair. For the next 3 years it would grow just long enough for it to be clipped back or to try tying it up and she’d come ask for another haircut. At the same time her eldest brother refused to have haircuts and wore his hair out or in a plait, ponytail or bun. I had so many conversations with friends and strangers about hair. My girl is growing hers now so I don’t have to keep talking about hers, but my 11 year old boy still has long hair and the world is convinced it means something. Something beyond the fact that he has awesome hair and enjoys it long. So many conversations about whether it was my choice or theirs. So many questions. So much angst. About hair.

And last year mr11 who is likely spectrummy too, but might not meet diagnostic criteria, started wondering himself if maybe it meant something.

Gender is a social construct. There are no girl or boy toys, colours, books or clothing. Inanimate objects don’t have a gender. Nor should hairstyles.

I believe that there are good people trying to do the best by children. But puberty and the hormones that come with it should not be played around with. Medication and surgery that leave children sterile and with other life-long negative consequences should be last resort. And children and young people on the spectrum seem to me to be the most vulnerable people in this whole mess. And it’s terrifying knowing that even discussing this is unacceptable.

FWIW I believe Zucker’s approach is too sensible and pragmatic and that the desisting rates showed that children and families could come to terms with non-conformity and the reality of their bodies. And this narrative terrified too many who have a vested interest in the currently accepted narrative.

As someone with a body that doesn’t work properly and who will take medications forever more, I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

@Emerencealwayshopeful thank you for sharing about ASD, my dd is almost certainly on the spectrum and I think ASD in girls is really not understood very well yet. Sorry to hear about your medical problems.

Erishkigal, NO they did NOT meet the criteria for gender dysphoria.

I am actually shocked on this site, not because of the levels of determined transphobia, but the sheer levels of ignorance on the subject.

PRE-2013 no criteria for gender dysphoria existed, because no diagnosis of gender dysphoria existed.

Everyone with me so far???

PRE-2013 it was called gender identity disorder, and had different criteria.
One of the criteria absent pre-2013 was children insisting they were the opposite sex..... and so GNC kids got caught up.

POST 2013, the criteria is tighter and MUST include children who insist they are the opposite sex, and the diagnosis is now gender dysphoria.

You are conflating two different diagnosis, with two different criteria.

NO study of gender dysphoria, shows the desistance from studies of gender identity disorder.

Because GNC kids were used in previous studies and so desisted because they were never trans to begin with, they are now ruled out due to the improved criteria and no studies of gender dysphoria show the same levels of desistance.

It was all in the link I shared previously, but let me guess, you have no interest in facts, or you are deeply ignorant of trans care illustrated by your posts on desistance and diagnosing criteria.

thinkprogress.org/transgender-children-desistance-a5caf61fc5c6/