Transing children

[Pratchet]

Brace doctor breaks cover and warns of the dangers

Re: Ken Zucker and the studies on the attractiveness of boys

This insinuation of an unsavoury research topic or unhealthy interest in the attractiveness of pre-pubescent boys (often also claimed as "sexual" attractiveness studies) is made again and again by TRAs to discredit Zucker.

So for anyone who cares to know, Zucker et al actually published three studies in which adults rated both girls and boys as to commonly understood traits of attractiveness (cute, tomboyish, pretty, handsome, rugged etc) in children.

These studies form a continuation of earlier and basis for later research into how adults interact with children based on the adults' perception of their attractiveness and joins a much wider body of research into how society responds differently to people who are more or less attractive.

For instance, when the most successful people in the world are looked at as a group, in terms of their attractiveness they are found to be above average. Now are they successful because their good looks have given them more confidence or self-esteem? Or is it because other people will actually be more willing to do something favourable for a beautiful person than an ugly one?

Of course, there's a whole range of other questions people are researching (and I have no idea what the answers are).

The studies looking at the attractiveness of children were prompted by Zucker et al noticing that parents would often recall that their gender dysphoric boys for instance were considered to be especially beautiful babies.

They wanted to find out if this attractiveness was perceived by other adults too at this later stage of childhood and if gender dysphoric boys were considered prettier than other, non-dysphoric boys. And if this might make a difference in how adults treated the children and how the children saw themselves.

Here's the conclusion of one of the studies, the full text can be downloaded free at this link

The results of the present study suggest that a more feminine-like physical appearance is another variable that distinguishes boys with gender identity disorder from other boys. The extent to which appearance plays a significant role in their social interactions and self-perceptions requires further empirical study.

But, and I'm trying to remember this correctly, they were almost forcing a gender on these children, in order to find out whether or not they rejected it, and could therefore be classed as transgender.

I remember this too, was it also this one that suggested transition cured autism?

“social communication and social imagination. I am hypothesising (and I'm wondering why the hell the experts aren't) that since those two prevent toddlers and children from picking up on and responding to social cues they will not internalise other people's gendered expectations of them. They are IMMUNE to gender. As they get older this becomes very confusing because they can see that others FEEL their gender. Indeed other people's brains will, I concede have changed, since brains are plastic, to incorporate those gender identities. They then receive the transgender narratives from people they know and through social media and, particularly if they are undiagnosed, as so many girls are, they think they have the answer that explains the difference. Do you understand therefore what I mean when I sat the coincidence of ASD and GID is EVIDENCE that gender is socially constructed?“
V interesting.

("extreme male brain theory....I ask you! What absolute pillock came up with that idea).

Datun

Are you thinking of this guidance for schools in Scotland?
www.centralsexualhealth.org/media/8009/guidance-for-schools-trans-gender-variance.pdf

Thread here
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3101028-To-think-this-breath-takingly-ill-thought-out-regressive-sexist-nonsense-and-is-a-real-danger-to-children-with-special-needs

Short extract from the Scottish schools document I linked to above:

Please note: by age 2 or 3, a child starts to develop a sense of being a male or female. Some children with a learning disability/additional support needs, however, may not develop gender awareness at the same age and stage as their peers. It is important that children with ASN are actively taught gender identity so that they understand the gender assigned to them at birth.

Conversely, this often requires blatant ‘boy/girl’ activities. However, once a child understands the gender assigned to them at birth, teaching and practice can diversify to include non-stereotypical approaches and allow the child to explore their True Gender identity.

I don't want to override the ASD discussion that's developed...
but SupermacthGame: you gave your explanation why "trans women are women". I was hoping for a coherent argument.
Could you respond to my request that you clarify your position; I found it difficult to understand tbh I found it incoherent.
You could start a new thread if you like.

Far from,
There are indeed hundreds of threads on that topic but they are “muted” on the active conversations board.

Re overcertainty, if there is uncertainty we do less intervention, not more surely?.

“Sarah- your response like so many others’ surprises me in the certainty in which you express your view. You may be right but you may not. And the fallout either way could be immense.
By the way diagnostic assessments are moving away from the triad to dsm v.

There is also evidnece relating to testosterone at different points in utero impacting on Asd. But none of any of this is conclusive. Yet I notice there are not 8 million threads worrying about whether or not asd has genetic or social roots.
It is very hard to determine either for anything. Yet these threads are amazingly full of confidence of cause.”

It comes back to the quasi-religious belief in gender as a sort of immutable, unchanging soul, independent of the body (witness "True Gender" in the quote above).

For the poster saying that we are talking about a small subset of a tiny minority of children. Autism is undiagnosed in many girls and young adults. Young adults aged 18 plus are not represented in the Tavi figures, but there are lots more out there, believe me.

Other parents of young adults with ASD are especially concerned about the lack of emotional maturity which makes it even harder to see the benefit of pursuing irreversible changes before aged 15.

Interesting talk from an autistic female here who previously identified as transgender

I meant to say before age 25!!

OldCrone

Yes, that's the one. Unbelievable.

Children who don't see gender are encouraged to play with what the researchers have designated male or female. Once they have accepted a gender identity, it's then explored whether or not that gender identity is correct!

Breathtaking.

And of course, we're back to the entire thing, where people are deciding what constitutes female toys and male toys.

I've lost count of the number of women on here who had wished fervently that they were a boy, because all the boys' games and toys were off limits.

CharlieParley

Thanks for clearing up about Ken Zucker. I sometimes get confused between his persecution and the persecution of Michael Bailey.

But one thing I know, transactivism is characterised by spin, outright deceit, and a propensity for precipitance which results in own goals.

But one thing I know, transactivism is characterised by spin, outright deceit, and a propensity for precipitance which results in own goals.

This thread is currently highlighted as 'calling for conversion therapy' by some TRAs, including the LibDem LGBT+ twitter accounts and some active members of Mermaids.

"Last week it was Section 28. Now they want to allow discredited conversion therapy, which we know is fraudulent and kills people."

[twitter.com/LGBTLD/status/988861998447415296

that's why language matters....

but pushing children to transition who would otherwise have been gay IS a form of conversion therapy is it not?

and oldcrone that extract is shocking. no, not all children have a gender identity at age 2 or 3 or actually much older. some are just kids allowed to be kids believe it or not. it really depends on what gender stereotypes are enforced or rejected by the people around them. people do it subconsciously a lot of the time.

R0wantrees

I wonder what I would do if I was a man on Twitter incensed by the women talking on here. They know we get attention from politicians, journalists and broadcasters - indeed, many are MN members and post on here.

They know they want us to be quiet.

But any attempt to make us be quiet, by it's nature, gives the site publicity. Which only further exposes the ideology and highlights the evidential debate on here.

It must be incredibly frustrating for them. And a frustrated, entitled male will generally reveal themselves very quickly.

They don't seem to have either the patience or the self-control to stop giving us the oxygen of publicity.

There really is an obvious inevitability about the direction in which this is going.

Datun
It was interesting to observe my (male) partner's reaction when I read IW's article in Pink News to him last night.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/24/india-willoughby-transphobia-opinion-worried-for-my-life-mumsnet/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

StarkStaring It comes back to the quasi-religious belief in gender as a sort of immutable, unchanging soul, independent of the body (witness "True Gender" in the quote above).

They're your words, not the researchers'. Where is the evidence that gender identity is entirely a social construct and not immutable for most people? Can you point to any published evidence?

CharlieParley This insinuation of an unsavoury research topic or unhealthy interest..... is made again and again by TRAs to discredit Zucker.

Yes the campaign to smear Ken Zucker is in the public domain, easy to research. All of the unpleasant accusations were subsequently formally retracted.

He's been accused of:
Homophobia - he states that homosexuality is the preferred outcome because it doesn't involve medication and surgery - what's wrong with that? Wouldn't anyone want to avoid that if they could? He also states that gnc behaviour is a normal part of many gay people's histories. How can that be homophobic?

Transphobia - he has presided over a clinic that prescribes cross sex hormones for adolescents - as a last resort. That's hardly transphobic.

One issue I'm not sure about is the fact that most of his patients desisted. Well most desist anyway? So not sure what is entirely going on or what he adds, but it would need a lot of unpicking. I think the unique thing about Zucker's approach is that it offered parents a different model of support. Not punitive but supporting parents to set some boundaries - crossdressing behaviour sometimes does seem to become an obsession in some people to the exclusion of other aspects of life. But it is also notable that no-one else seems to have tried it.

Only those parents and children who were in his clinic's care will know if that approach was helpful. Unless they ever come forward with their stories we will probably never really know.

SupermatchGame
Where is the evidence that gender identity is entirely a social construct and not immutable for most people?
Can you explain to me what 'gender identity' is? What does it feel like and how would I know what mine is?

OldCrone Gender identity is the sex with which you identify with or feel you are.

I think it can be experienced as a feeling of 'being a man or a woman' or experienced as a feeling of dysphoria to sexed aspects of the body. Or a combination of both. I don't think we know exactly what identity is - what is it to feel human? Where is our consciousness? How can you concretise a feeling?

I'm not sure you would necessarily know what yours is if you feel as though you are the sex you were born? Maybe gender identity isn't something we even think about if it is not in conflict with our sex?

Gender identity is the sex with which you identify with or feel you are.

How do you reconcile that statement with the "gender spectrum" currently being taught in schools by the so called gender experts?

I think it can be experienced as a feeling of 'being a man or a woman' or experienced as a feeling of dysphoria to sexed aspects of the body.
But it is not possible to 'feel like a man' if you are a woman or 'feel like a woman' if you are a man because you have no idea what feeling like a woman is if you are a man. I understand that you might feel unhappy about some aspect of your body, but that does not mean that you feel like something else.

I'm not sure you would necessarily know what yours is if you feel as though you are the sex you were born?
I think everyone feels as though they are the sex they are born. Anything else is denying reality. But this has nothing to do with gender identity.

How can you concretise a feeling?

By making it a fucking law and demanding we all fucking defer to it.

For fuck sake! Really, for fucks sake.

Trying to catch up with this thread as I've been so busy. @starkstaring thank you for that video! It's so helpful and heartening to hear an autistic erson refer to their superpower in relation to seeing gender bullshit for what it is. I thought I had created that use of the term just for my dd! @supermatchgame I'm pretty sure that up thread I've asked you for evidence of the biological and genetic determinents for gender identity. Would it be worth us starting a nature vs nurture thread to collect the research links? We could begin by setting out the questions we are seeking to answer and what would constitute decent research on both sides. Eg. You can't use the observable nature of gender identity as evidence that it is innate. The observed thing is the thing being questioned. It's observability itself says nothing about it (we seem to have jumped from psychology to sociology to philosophy - understanding gender probably does need all three!)

@CharlieParley

Thank you for that summary! Taking that and twisting it into Zucker having an unsavory interest in children is...well, what we've come to expect from TRAs really.

Tallies with my personal experience too in that very beautiful boys and men often seem to provoke a sort of anxiety and confusion in other people, particularly in men, which leads to those other people treating them oddly, which may in turn lead to them developing gender issues in disproportionate numbers.