Transing children

[Pratchet]

Brace doctor breaks cover and warns of the dangers

I think it is transphobic to say 'you're all abnormal'. Some kids will be like I was and gender non-confirming L, G or B and some will be trans. I have a huge problem with L, G or B children being put on cross sex hormones before they've worked out who they really are. If the child is gender dysphoric and has body dysmorphia and understands all the life-long implications then I think that's different.

Whether there is a sure fire way to tell the difference, I really don't know.

I was well into my 20s before I accepted that being a woman was a good thing. But that was a problem I had with society's stereotypes and not my body.

No hiding @supermatchgame when it doesn't go your way. Why should I listen to you?

Yeah, I thought so. No answer. This is not something the left will let through because most of the left is female. Jog on with your sexism.

Er, super match did say she was going to bed, that is allowed you know.

I see you're still up for other threads @tygr. Please answer me. Kids are very important

What? Answer you what? Did you miss my post? I am allowed to be doing other things too. I was reading Miranda Yardley's posts on twitter if that's ok with you?!

It doesn't really effect her. So she isn't allowed an opinion on it?

So what would happen to this woman today, an amazing talent with a bodyshape she was told was wrong.

Professionals who are experienced, trained, intelligent clinicians that just want the best for their patients. Really? ALL of them? Or are some guilty of wanting to be so PC that common sense has gone out the window?

Yes, and as we know the non empaths have inordinate power over empaths.

We know it, but we stand by with our mouths agape watching.

And then we claim we did not see, or no one listened, and no one cared.

Fuck that. Don't do that.

You could listen to a random NHS psychiatrist who has no experience in this area simply because she is aligned to your ideology,

Alternatively you could do some actual research

You'd find that hormone blockers are in the realm of Endocrinology and that the International Endocrinology guidance, last updated September 2017, and followed by the NHS, finds that puberty blockers are a safe, reversible and effective treatment for gender dysphoric adolescents from Tanner stage 2.

www.endocrine.org/advocacy/priorities-and-positions/transgender-health

Which is it to be?

One random 'gender critical' psychiatrist, who has 'feelings' and 'anecdotes' and attended a 'WPUK' Bristol meeting.

vs

30+ years of Evidence based practice by the international experts in this field. The guidelines are endorsed by the world’s leading centres for evidence based practice: the American Association of Clinical Endocrinologists, the American Society of Andrology, the European Society for Pediatric Endocrinology, the European Society of Endocrinology, the Pediatric Endocrine Society, and the World Professional Association for Transgender Health.

Here's a quote from the accompanying position paper:

“The medical consensus in the late 20th century was that transgender and gender incongruent individuals suffered a mental health disorder termed “gender identity disorder. Gender identity was considered malleable and subject to external influences. Today, however, this attitude is no longer considered valid. Considerable scientific evidence has emerged demonstrating a durable biological element underlying gender identity. Individuals may make choices due to other factors in their lives, but there do not seem to be external forces that genuinely cause individuals to change gender identity.

Although the specific mechanisms guiding the biological underpinnings of gender identity are not entirely understood, there is evolving consensus that being transgender is not a mental health disorder. Such evidence stems from scientific studies suggesting that: 1) attempts to change gender identity in intersex patients to match external genitalia or chromosomes are typically unsuccessful; 2) identical twins (who share the exact same genetic background) are more likely to both experience transgender identity as compared to fraternal (non-identical) twins; 3) among individuals with female chromosomes (XX), rates of male gender identity are higher for those exposed to higher levels of androgens in utero relative to those without such exposure, and male (XY)-chromosome individuals with complete androgen insensitivity syndrome typically have female gender identity 6; and 4) there are associations of certain brain scan or staining patterns with gender identity rather than external genitalia or chromosomes

In summary, although there is much that is still unknown with respect to gender identity and its expression, compelling studies support the concept that biologic factors, in addition to environmental factors, contribute to this fundamental aspect of human development.

Data are strong for a biological underpinning to gender identity”

So - what does all this, effectively, mean for the safety of me and my daughter?

Bath Spar University banned a research project looking into those who decided to 'detransition' (changed gender then back again).

Here's an extract from:

www.theguardian.com/education/2017/sep/25/bath-spa-university-transgender-gender-reassignment-reversal-research

"When he went back with his preliminary findings that suggested growing numbers of young people, particularly women, were regretting gender reassignment, Bath Spa said his proposal would have to be resubmitted to the ethics committee, which rejected it."

I think this is concerning because the help people actually need is being ignored, just to back a pseudo notion that transitioning is perfect for everyone with gender dysphoria. It really is a crime of the next few decades and we will hear in future about all the people we have let down. The social science community should be ashamed of themselves. Politics and opinion should have no bearing on the science of treatment.

FYI: My post wasn't to discredit transitioning. I'm merely pointing out that if we are to be the "inclusive" society that the LGBT community advocates then we need to consider the needs of everyone involved with gender dysphoria; including those who've had the horrendous experience of de-transitioning.

Critical medical professionals are ruthlessly attacked by TRAs. This is the reality, if you criticise TRA beliefs they will try to render you unemployed and unemployable.

This happened not only with Dr. Caspian but also with other medical professionals such as Dr. Zucker, perhaps THE most experienced doctor dealing with transgender children who has been noplatformed and activists protested ceaselessly till he was banned even from appearing on television. www.thestar.com/entertainment/television/2017/12/12/cbc-pulls-harmful-transgender-kids-documentary-from-schedule-after-online-complaints.html

Moreover those in this thread claiming that there is massive body of years of evidence supporting medically transitioning children are talking obvious nonsense. This started in the very recent past.

Here's Dr. Spack discussing - quite openly - how he experimented on the child of the now-head of Mermaids.

The follow-up to this treatment was Jackie's mum (the aforementioned head of Mermaids) took Jackie to Thailand aged 15 to have genital reassignment surgery (since banned for children this age) www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/851138/i-had-sex-swap-op-on-my-16th-birthday/

The NHS published Jackie's story on their website - minus the bit about the simultaneous administration of oestrogen, and the susbequent genital surgery - as an example to other parents. <a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20090610172510/www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Transhealth/Pages/Transrealstorymother.aspx" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20090610172510/www.nhs.uk/Livewell/Transhealth/Pages/Transrealstorymother.aspx

(That was from 2009, the NHS now treats children as young as 10 with GnRHa hormones)

So the idea this has some massive body of evidence of is so laughable that it's very difficult to believe that posters in this thread seriously believe it to be true - the reality is the now-head of Mermaids flew off to Boston around 10 years ago and the doctor did a bit of hand-waving and said 'what you need is a dose of female hormones and some GnRHa hormones' and someone in the NHS decided it was a good idea to publicise this.

Sensible, rational people would have said, hmm perhaps we should look at what led to this very extreme course of action (not least the 16yo genital surgery, and then further televised cosmetic surgery at 18) and address THAT, but no it's apparently better according to some posters in this thread to crack out the drugs.

It's not really a mystery what led to this extreme action, they discussed it on TV Jackie was viciously bullied and attacked by 40 year old men, it's completely understandable that you would want a solution to that. But rather than address this violent homophobia, West Yorkshire Police prefers to arrest women (posieparker) for criticising the medicalisation of distressed children.

And let's not pretend for a moment that transgender medicine is in any way neutral, rationally scientific arena. That's laughable. Firstly some of those involved are already TRAs, as in the ridiculous 'transwomen can breastfeed' study, which was conducted by a transwoman nurse practitioner.

Why the desperate hurry to instruct children and parents to early transition?

I believe at least part of it is aesthetic. You get a more 'convincing' result when transitioning a boy who has not been through male puberty. Denying children the right to mature their brains and bodies by going through puberty to achieve some stereotyped 'look' makes me want to go on a hulk smash rampage.

Theskyisgrey with regards to puberty blockers beinging safe I suggest you wade through a body of evidence link through this thread.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3227666-Puberty-blockers-Lupron

I was put on a similar drug (a GnRH analogue) for six months as a treatment for endometriosis. The side effects were horrendous, there is no way a child should be given these drugs.

Same here. Also given this kind of treatment for a similar condition. It was hell. I'm terribly concerned that this kind of thing is being given to children, often without them or their parents being made aware of potential consequences.
Medicalisation should a last resort in children but instead it's being increasingly used as the first step.
I strongly believe that the next few decades are going to bring some serious lawsuits and compensation claims due to the damage they're doing. And people are going to look back and say 'Why did everyone just turn a blind eye?' same as every other bloody scandal involving children.

My sister nearly starved herself to death because of her dysphoria. The solution was not to tell her that actually she was right that 5 stone was a healthy weight but to provide her with the right support to help her recover.

A child is not old enough to decide to destroy their own fertility and parents and medical staff who collude in this are going to look back on what they've done in years to come with horror.

I agree that its aethetics. Parents, and teenagers, know now that the features that make it harder for people to "pass" come from the process of puberty eg in men, deep voice, broad shoulders, large hands and feet and in women, breasts, hips etc. It therefore "makes sense" to transition before all that happens, hence the puberty blockers. At what psychological cost though, never mind any medical issues with the drugs. An important part of the next 60 years of your life is the emotional maturity and self knowledge you gain going through puberty and growing up. I find it astounding that any medical professional thinks it appropriate to excise puberty from human development. I think any transitioning should be done post puberty, and the resultant physical limitations accepted as a part of the biological reality of gender reassignment.

Where were these kids 20 years ago? Or even 10?

Not all were gay or bi.

I was one. Hated, hated, hated my body aged 11/12/13. Was a bit of a tomboy and body changing was something that I didn’t like and couldn’t control.

And then I got to about 14/15. And “grew into myself”. And loved my new (gorgeous) body. And got on with my life and lived happily ever after with my unaffected fertility meaning I could have the children I wanted.

I didn’t need drugs, I didn’t need therapy. What I needed was probably a 17year old girl to say to me “look - puberty is crap but you’ll get through it and life will be good again soon.” And maybe to live in a less misogynistic world so that the boys in my class didn’t feel they had the right to comment on the girls’ bodies.

Even with that I muddled through and although it wasn’t a great time of my life it really wasn’t all that bad.

What you are saying, SupermatchGame, is that an appropriate response to children suffering from dysphoria or body integrity distress is deprivation of puberty (a necessary developmental phase, particularly for sexual and cognitive maturity) followed by hormonal intervention that will a) render them sterile, b) negatively affect sexual function for life and c) have long term side effects, none of which have been studied.

Nobody here thinks distress should not be addressed and alleviated. Your appeals to emotion simply obscure the reality of drastic and experimental medical intervention in young people, when both childhood and adolescence are vital periods of identity formation in and of themselves.

@Theskyisgrey
You must know that's a disingenuous claim; there is a world of difference between treating precocious puberty, and using puberty blockers to prevent normal puberty.
Puberty is a specific, time sensitive period of development, it is not something you can stop and start at will.

The point of using puberty blockers on children who think they are trans is to stop puberty from taking place, not pause it.
The drugs are used to halt the development of their genitals and secondary sexual characteristics so as to give a 'better outcome'.
It is not reversible, as it takes the child past the point of normal puberty.
By which time they are already sterile, and don't develop normal, adult sexual desires. The results are not reversible.

The whole beauty queen thing disturbs me greatly, like thats the ultimate outcome for becoming a woman, drag us back into the 70s and measure our worth based on our bodies.

My mind is blown by the idea that people think child psychologists/psychiatrists aren’t concerned and at a loss to explain what’s going on with current rise in trans-identifying children. You may want to google recent presentations from the Head of the Tavistock clinic.

And what the ones I know are saying in private is much more in explicit agreement with what this doctor says here.

Yes, NHS experts in this area ARE concerned, as well as other medical and counselling professionals who have an understanding of medical ethics and the impact of medical interventions.