Trans unpeak.

[Regularhuey]

After reaching peak trans I have followed a few well known Radical Feminist groups on SM to learn more.

Sadly I have come across actual genuine transphobia in GC groups which I thought was just propaganda put out by TRAs.

Because I only ever hung around in naice intellectual spaces such as here, I thought they would all be a bit like MN feminist chat.

One summary of a conversation went along the lines of

Group post
"There's a Transwoman fitting bras at a London branch of M&S" Shock face.

Replies include "oh no (angry face) I'm never taking my daughter there"

Me:
"Men can work as a bra fitter. We should be able to ask staff for a female fitter if we want one"

Cue loads of hypothetical scenarios that we don't know will ever happen and predictable posts about AGP and boycotting M&S.

Anyway this is just one example of many I've come across recently.

I just suppose, as GC feminists perhaps we should be doing more to call out transphobia when we do see it because it seems lots of people are using GC feminism to express their hostility to Transpeople.

I should have specified that my biscuit post was aimed at the OP.

I would refuse to have a non-woman fit me for a bra. I have had male gynaecologists and have no problem with that. Apples and oranges.

*How could a male not realise that most women would not want him as a bra fitter? Why would he choose to do that unless to encroach on women's boundaries? The very fact that that person has chosen to become a bra fitter tells me to keep myself and my daughter as far away as possible. Just NO. I don't give the smallest fuck who thinks that's transphobic"

Yep

I'm increasingly seeing the label 'transphobia' being used to mean 'woman not putting the best interests of a trans person first'.

Being trans should obviously be no barrier to employment, the laws exist and are there to ensure no discrimination. Employment where touch, nudity, vulnerability and intimate care is involved is different because however that person identifies, what matters is their biological sex. There are a few specific jobs where someone whose identity and biological sex don't match is not the right choice for the role, because in a very few situations biological sex matters to women. This is not a 'barrier' to break down or discrimination.

To say that women not wanting to celebrate trans bra fitters is intrinsically wrong basically translates to 'transwomen are women', ergo it's wrong for women to put their own feelings and needs in front of validation and support of the trans employee's self identification.

This is not a 'barrier' to break down or discrimination.

Exactly. But breaking those barriers is what the activists are aiming for

Kneedeepin
Yes and all women should be able to say "can I please have a female fitter" without being labelled a 'phobe. I agree transwomen are male so female should mean female. M&S should provide that choice which they do anyway because most staff can fit bras on the underwear floor.

It is not right to say a transwoman can't do certain jobs on your say so.
You don't know their background they may have completed a degree in fashion contour and need to work, they may be better qualified than the next applicant who knows.

For some reason I'm thinking of Gok Wan and most people would not mind if he fit their bras he's been in more intimate fitting situations.

Lots and lots of women would not mind a tw fitting their bras. If they do, they should be able to say so. I support same-sex provision.

Hear hear Bowl.

The "unpeak" bit is suddenly seeing a lot of over-dramatic harsh viewpoints that do support more of an anti-trans position than just pro woman's rights, and reflecting on that.
I am not thinking "oh I've changed my mind now and actually women's rights should be erased".

Lots and lots of women would not mind a tw fitting their bras. If they do, they should be able to say so.

They can. Absolutely no one is stopping them.

Their degree is irrelevant. They may be an excellent bra fitter, they may be an AGP who gets a kick out of it. You have no idea. That’s why the right to say no without being called a transphobe is vital. women and girls can say no

Any woman should be able to say no.

A 12 year old girl who has probably never had any adult male see her undressed except her dad and her doctor should absolutely never be put into a situation where she feels uncomfortable. Do we honestly think it’s ok for us to put a child into a situation where the total onus is on her to keep herself safe or to maintain her privacy? Yes she can say no (or maybe she can’t wothoit being abused as transphobic) but she’s a child ffs. Her safety is paramount. She’s not a jaded 38 year old feminist who would happily say ‘no ta - bring me your most matronly fitter or this ain’t happening’ she’s probably just going to think oh god, I have to go along with this. And be distressed.

And that’s her first experience of being in a state of undress with a man. Boundaries violated, no right to say no. That’s just fucking awful.

There’s a campaign where I live that’s akin to the ‘pants’ one - it’s basically ‘stop! My body!’ And it teaches children that their bodies are theirs and that no one has a right to push their boundaries. That certain regions of their bodies are not for public touch.

But all that’s fucking pointless isn’t it if a child gets marched into marks and confronted with a bloke to fit her first bra?

Why bother? No missy, your body exists for Male pleasure and you have no right to say no.

Being female is a required qualification for anyone who's going to fit me for a bra. The best fitters are usually the ones with many years of experience anyway. Some young bloke right out of fashion school may want the work, but that doesn't mean I/other women have to volunteer ourselves for him to practice on.

It is not right to say a transwoman can't do certain jobs on your say so.

I get to have the final say in whoever gets to do any job, Regularhuey, if that job involves touching my body.

Regularhuey: Sadly I have come across actual genuine transphobia

Then please define what 'actual genuine transphobia' is.

Because the scenario sounds like good old 'malephobia' and the reluctance that most women have getting naked or partially naked in front of males they don't know. I say fair enough. Women should have that right, and also, not be put into a position where they actually have to ask for that dignity.

That the women discussing that did not discuss it in polite enough terms for your liking, still does not make it 'transphobia'.

WillowWept has it exactly right:
If you ask for a female bra fitter you will be told that the trans woman is a woman and that you're a bigot if you don't want him to fit your bra

For some reason I'm thinking of Gok Wan and most people would not mind if he fit their bras he's been in more intimate fitting situations.

So because most people wouldn’t mind if Gok Wan measured their breasts then we should allow Male bra fitters. How is that going to work practically, ‘sorry you can’t be a bra fitter you have to be Gok Wan like’ the thing with policy is it has to be consistent and clear.

And anyway I would REALLY mind if Gok Wan was at the door of Marks and Spencer’s dressing room to measure me, I hate this ‘it doesn’t count I’m gay’ thing. It’s not all about them! Whether they are gay or not is interely irrelevant, it’s another version of ‘are you saying I’m a rapist?’ When you try and explain why women might need sex segregated spaces.

The idea that if you'd be OK with physical contact with one man you should be OK with physical contact with any man has a rather nasty, misogynistic history, OP. Is that really where you want to go with your argument?

I don’t care if it’s gok wan, mr. Gay uk or Jesus Christ himself. I don’t want a bloke fitting my bra.

I don’t care if they’re gay. That line of argument says a lesbian shouldn’t fit bras.

It’s aboit womens right to say no and have single sex spaces by making it ‘what about this bloke? This one?’ It makes it about the men. It pushes boundaries. It’s women saying no and men hearing maybe.

And there we are, pandering to men’s feelings again. in Marks and Sparks bra fitting area.

NO IS NOT THE START POINT OF A NEGOTIATION it means no. It doesn’t mean try harder, push more. It means no.

When my cheapo Asda bra fell apart, it was my female co-worker who had to help me pull out the under wire that was threatening to stab me in the ribs. #onlywomenunderstand

I agree transwomen are male OP do you realise how transphobic this statement is?
You seem very naive.

NO IS NOT THE START POINT OF A NEGOTIATION it means no. It doesn’t mean try harder, push more. It means no.

Yes. No is a complete sentence.

And if I assert a boundary, it's a boundary. Asserting that my boundary is up for debate doesn't mean we're having a debate. It means you're overriding my consent. Not on.

When one person is going to touch another, especially in an intimate way, whose rights and considerations are paramount?

The Toucher or the Touchee?

This is not a diffIcult question

@Regularhuey
"In my opinion if you ask for a female fitter you should get a female not a Transwoman.
But transwomen should be allowed to work as fitters and shops not be boycotted when they are"

How do you propose society should stop people not shopping at certain shops that where they feel the shop has thrown females dignity under the bus?

Thrown under the bus in favour of bowing to a minority opinion that biological sex doesn't matter and how a person feels in their own head does?

My personal opinion is males should not be fitting bras, and we should not have to ask specifically for a female.
However, males do a lot of gaslighting and they do it so well, some women join in!
And the narrative becomes about one males rights verses countless women's rights.

Shops should think who they are serving, one person who wants to work there or the female customers who will feel and uncomfortable and because of the current toxic anti-female environment (which is a new twist on the old toxic anti-female environment, will feel unable to request a female.

Whether a male knows a lot about bras or not, is irrelevant IMHO.

If TRAs really cared about trans people's rights they would stop appropriating female spaces and hounding females on social media and work for legitimate safe third spaces. This is about reinforcing a gender identity when the safest, kindest thing to do would be trash notions of 'gender' allow all people to dress and present as they like, while keeping sex based protections and allowing care and a route for people who are genuinely suffering from sex dyshoria.

IMHO

This whole 'unpeak' thing is an effort to get us to revert to our former approach which led to women's rights being so badly abused. It's a form of gaslighting.

Women have seen how when they give an inch, a mile is taken. So, lots of women have decided not to give the inch any more.

'Unpeak' is an attempt to look reasonable while getting women to lower their guard again.

Love "When my cheapo Asda bra fell apart"
take that back, you bigot!

Asda bras are fantastic, it is literally the only place I can buy 34G bras on a budget!

I get pretty much all my none crop top bras from the marks and Spencer’s seconds shop.
They don’t measure you there.

I'm not clear why there is so much misinformation and scaremongering being thrown around here. The general lack of education and critical thinking on this subject on such a (supposedly enlightened) forum never ceases to amaze me. It's no wonder some on here are accused of demonising transpeople, particularly (trans) women.

Have you actually read the Equality Act & supporting material? Quoting exactly here from legislation.gov.uk:

Example

A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.

So what is the exact problem again? Are you just incapable of extrapolating or do you only hear what you want to hear?

@BarrackerBarmer

You nailed it

"So what you're saying, OP
is that a male person (who probably still has his penis, statistically)
is the member of staff chosen as the MOST appropriate person to assist female customers in a state of half nakedness
Both women and young girls
And to object to this choice being presented as a default is transphobic?"

That is how gaslighting works. It sounds almost reasonable for a mango do this job (it's not), then it sounds almost unreasonable to ask for a female (it's not) then, suddenly, not only is it transphobic to not want a male as a bra fitter but women are actually so concerned for that one make they might abandon all critical thinking!

My God men must be laughing at us.

And your post at 2:28 yesterday, brilliant.

Plus we have male gynoclogists because at one time all doctors were male.

"women's bodies; women's boundaries; women's wishes.". Women's rights.

I think we need to organise in favour of the crop top and take no prisoners, this under wire is eating our souls.....



"It sounds almost reasonable for a mango do this job." Of dear, now my speller-checker has made me anti-fruit!