Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans unpeak.

353 replies

Regularhuey · 20/04/2018 20:42

After reaching peak trans I have followed a few well known Radical Feminist groups on SM to learn more.

Sadly I have come across actual genuine transphobia in GC groups which I thought was just propaganda put out by TRAs.

Because I only ever hung around in naice intellectual spaces such as here, I thought they would all be a bit like MN feminist chat.

One summary of a conversation went along the lines of

Group post
"There's a Transwoman fitting bras at a London branch of M&S" Shock face.

Replies include "oh no (angry face) I'm never taking my daughter there"

Me:
"Men can work as a bra fitter. We should be able to ask staff for a female fitter if we want one"

Cue loads of hypothetical scenarios that we don't know will ever happen and predictable posts about AGP and boycotting M&S.

Anyway this is just one example of many I've come across recently.

I just suppose, as GC feminists perhaps we should be doing more to call out transphobia when we do see it because it seems lots of people are using GC feminism to express their hostility to Transpeople.

OP posts:
ZeroFoxGiven · 22/04/2018 15:48

Typo! *then so be it

PencilsInSpace · 22/04/2018 15:49

Yes that's true. I wasn't thinking of trans as including TVs. Not sure Jaycee was either?

What about changing gender reassignment to gender expression in the EA?

ZeroFoxGiven · 22/04/2018 15:54

What about changing gender reassignment to gender expression in the EA?

IMO it would be better to add it as an additonal characteristic as the gender reassignment protected characteristic ensures people going through reassignment surgery don't get fired when they need to take time off for operations/recovery etc.

Or alternatively it could just be done with some clever adjustments to the sex discrimination sections and new guidance.

leyat · 22/04/2018 16:03

Yeah cos in this climate women are going to feel totally fine with asking for a female bra fitter to a fitter who is a trans identifying male. And why should men be fitting bra's at all, however they identify? Why should women have to ask for a female at all? Surely anyone who understands gender socialisation understands that this should not be happening....

Jayceedove · 22/04/2018 16:05

Havoc, it is so long ago when I transitioned and this was still new (I first saw a doctor before the first clinic in the UK opened at Charing Cross in the late 60s). So they were probably doing more research than they do today and lots of tests to try to find out what might be wrong.

I can only report what happened then and it involved extensive tests at various hospitals and in patient assessment at a psychiatric unit before I was even forwarded to Charing Cross.

But I saw several patients turned away and told they had other conditions and who got on with life. One who was with me in the psych unit traced me post transition after he had 'become a normal man' (he claimed) and asked me out on a date. I had known him enough from the hospital to stay clear. And I was a decade post surgery then and in a steady relationship.

I do not imagine it is this thorough today but from what I have seen from other transsexuals on here who transitioned more recently than 45 years ago some of that still applies.

Hopefully someone like that who is a regular poster on here will say more.

Havoc · 22/04/2018 16:07

Ok

Jayceedove · 22/04/2018 16:16

To answer above, no transsexuals and transvestites are not at all the same thing.

For a start - whilst not completely true - transsexuals are more often heterosexual post transition (as in a trans woman will have relationships with men) and transvestites most often are heterosexual before transition - as in marry a woman as a man and remain interested in women post transition.

There are exceptions, of course, but this is the rule more often than not.

Transsexuals also usually visit doctors in childhood and transition as early as possible. It is not at all unusual for transvestites to marry, have kids and transition when much older after the kids have grown up.

You can never base anything on generalities but the generalities are real.

Fundamentally, though, a transvestite is about playing the role of a woman and emphasising clothes and appearance. Transsexuals are about becoming a woman and living this way.

There really are many differences. And whilst I have no problem with transvestites expressing themselves as they choose they tend not to have dysphoria or at least to anything like the same degree.

No transsexual with really deep dysphoria could, in my view, defer transition until they are married or have grown up kids or would involve them into the mess that their dysphoria is without resolving it first. To do so seems to me extremely selfish.

Havoc · 22/04/2018 18:24

No transsexual with really deep dysphoria could, in my view, defer transition until they are married or have grown up kids or would involve them into the mess that their dysphoria is without resolving it first. To do so seems to me extremely selfish.

But being married with children doesn't stop someone getting a GRC.

Bowlofbabelfish · 22/04/2018 18:37

No transsexual with really deep dysphoria could, in my view, defer transition until they are married or have grown up kids or would involve them into the mess that their dysphoria is without resolving it first. To do so seems to me extremely selfish.

I think that view is laudable and says plenty about your own personal moral compass being in good shape jaycee - I’m not sure if it’s something that everyone would do though.

Jayceedove · 22/04/2018 20:04

I would not hold myself up to anything honourable over that, bowl.

I knew I was trans from primary school days and was aware as soon as I started seeing doctors that this was too deep rooted to involve someone else. I could see my family struggling as it was, because in the 1960s there was no public awareness at all like now to even have a point of view.

One of the doctors suggested that I should just be gay and I thought about it, when I met a boy I really liked. I was asked to help him with his O levels in a subject I was good at. I had a few sleepless nights wondering what to do. But concluded that I had no problem with him being gay, if he was. I just knew I wasn't gay myself.

At that moment I knew that this was always going to create difficulties for anybody I had a relationship with so that I would have to determine my own future first as the only fair way to anyone else.

It was not a moral thing, really. I doubt at that age any of us have that degree of morality in us. It was simply that being trans was so overwhelming that no relationship that was fair to both of us could happen until it was resolved.

I told him the truth and he was actually very nice about it - though I doubt he understood what I was saying and probably thought I was gay. The natural default position then.

So really I fell onto this moral choice by accident, but am really glad I did, because later on I could see how terrible it would have been to inflict something this intractable onto anybody else.

I can see why others might have thought differently. It was common then for doctors to just tell you to 'man up' and you see a similar feeling on threads on here - just be who you are, accept biology, live your life. And they might well think the best cure would be to have a 'normal' relationship and have a family and hope it works.

This is why I am not as opposed to children being assessed and helped to transition. I do believe nothing dramatic should be done unless they have persisted in the insistence of their dysphoria for years and no cross sex hormones or surgery until adults should not change from now.

But if we can focus on the kids who really di have dysphoria by finding a test, if there is one to be found, that is definitive, otherwise erring on the side of caution, and letting them be free to explore and change their minds without feeling pressurised to make long term choices impossibly early, then I think it is important.

Because if we can stop any trans child trying to marry and father their way out of dysphoria we save not just that child but potentially several others being innocently drawn into their inevitably difficult future.

Self ID has some merit for me in that regard because it gives chance to experiment and not irrevocably act first and regret later.

My concern over self ID is not it happening. But its acceptance as a path to legal gender change.

That may be the outcome of self ID later on, but it might not. So I see it as a trial run and that if the person feels it works for them that it could be a stepping stone to full time transition via the proper checks and balances of the GRA.

But it should not just be a replacement for the GRA as it minimises the importance of the journey to full transition - which should be hard fought and hard thought out and not just last as long as filling out a form.

Italiangreyhound · 22/04/2018 21:17

If someone has crippling dysphoria are they able to get married and have kids and live that life while also having dysphoria? I just don't know.

My transsexual friend was a gay male and then transitioned. She never felt comfortable with her penis. I was told she did not even want to wash it let alone use it to have sex with a woman.

There is nothing wrong with being happy with a penis, and dressing 'as a woman', but it does suggest if a person is happy with their body they don't have dysphoria.

Jayceedove · 22/04/2018 21:27

I have upset a few people with my post at 16.16 above where I tried (badly) to answer the question about the difference between transsexual and transvestite.

It is apparent that I am rather out of touch and have an old fashioned view on these matters. Which I guess is inevitable as I was raised in the 1950s by a Methodist family so my views are traditional and may be out of date.

I should have clarified, as I knew it was true, that gender identity and sexual preference are not directly correlated. There are gay and straight trans people as there are non trans people. I have said this in other threads but did not make it clear above.

By generalising about transsexuals mostly being hetero after transition and transvestites mostly hetero before I apparently created a false impression of this prevalence.

I did say this was not universally true but I am assured it is more diverse than I realised. So happy to make that clear.

I have also upset, unintentionally one or two transsexual women who married and had kids and transitioned late in life and have stayed happily married. I knew that happened, of course. I have posted elsewhere about my admiration for Jan Morris who did exactly that.

So it was not my intent to imply that if you did not transition until late in life you could not be transsexual.

Of course you can. I was referring to the depth of dysphoria and how hard it was for me just in childhood and extrapolating to others thinking it would not be possible to do that for several decades. So I apologise for inadvertently angering some who tell me it happens. And that dysphoria can evolve. I had not realised that.

I was certainly not trying to diminish anything but was probably overly sweeping in my generalities above.

I am not an expert on these things and have no part of the trans community such as never being in or at any groups or meetings or rallies. The only trans people I have met all transitioned when I did many years ago. So are likely just as out of date as me.

Perils of a sheltered life, just being myself post transition. It had its great upside but it diminishes my value as any kind of 'expert' - which I most certainly am not.

So I do not mean to come over as one.These things only ever are my personal thoughts. No more, no less.

spontaneousgiventime · 22/04/2018 21:32

JC I have seen the attack on you at the other place and it's disgusting. We appreciate the perspective you give from a trans point of view (well I do). Sadly, you are now facing the same attacks we face simply for having an opinion.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 22/04/2018 21:46

jayceedove

You were posting from your experience, thats all any of us can do

sorry to hear that some one in another place is being mean...dunno whats wrong with some people

Your posts are very much appreciated here and i don't remember seeing you pretend to be some sort of 'expert', you have always said its just your opinion/experience

Thanks
Rufustheconstantreindeer · 22/04/2018 21:47

That sounds dumb but i dont know what the other place is

I dont like the sound of it

Jayceedove · 22/04/2018 21:47

I think I have probably said as much as I can say anyway.

The last thing I was looking for was to be considered an expert or to be accidentally upsetting anyone. That was never my intent.

But when that happens the best thing for all is to just call it quits all round.

spontaneousgiventime · 22/04/2018 21:51

Rufustheconstantreindeer it starts here JC says they are trying to out her here, it must be something more private (thankfully) as I have no idea what it means.

JC I hope you do stat to give us your unique perspective on this very complex subject.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 22/04/2018 21:51

You dont have to call it quits

Do you mean quits on here?

Dont leave, hang around and shoot the shit like everyone else

You dont have to post anything meanful....I rarely do (usually by accident)

spontaneousgiventime · 22/04/2018 21:52

*stay not stat.

Italiangreyhound · 22/04/2018 21:55

@Jayceedove

"I think I have probably said as much as I can say anyway." there is always more to say!

"The last thing I was looking for was to be considered an expert or to be accidentally upsetting anyone. That was never my intent."

We know, we do. It's impossible not to upset someone sometime.

"But when that happens the best thing for all is to just call it quits all round." No way, do not call it quits. We like listening. XXX Stay.

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 22/04/2018 21:57

Do you do fortean times jaycee

I used to have a couple of their 'death' books which now i type it sounds weird

I just won't press post

Rufustheconstantreindeer · 22/04/2018 21:57

Shit

smithsinarazz · 22/04/2018 22:07

@jayceedove - I love your posts. They are a breath of fresh air. Please stay xx

ZeroFoxGiven · 22/04/2018 22:08

Oh Jayceedove please do stick around here if you feel able to. This place can get a bit echo chamber-y and I welcome your insight having actually gone through the GRC process etc.

Sorry people are being dicks to you Flowers

spontaneousgiventime · 22/04/2018 22:16

I don't think she will come back (I hope I'm wrong). She's been bullied out of her own community, I can't imagine how that feels. JC Flowers

Swipe left for the next trending thread