Reconciling competing rights

[GaspingShark]

Let me start by saying I do know what it's like to have my experience disbelieved, invalidated and gaslighted on an large scale, though not as a trans person or a victim of sexual assault. I don't have PTSD but I do know what it's like to have triggerable sources of distress, again, not as a trans person or a victim of sexual assault.

For me, equal rights must include the right to define your own experience, without gatekeepers, and to be very hesitant to consider people delusional.

So I am unsure about this. I would be ashamed of trans friends seeing me saying stuff such as "I err on the side of including them as much as possible", because I don't think that kind of recognition is mine to confer.

OTOH, I don't know if therefore that means I'm not recognising sexual assault survivors distressed by the fear of male people in women-only contexts.

Is this reconcilable, or does it mean one side just has to grin and bear it? I'll read this thread carefully but due to my bad management of a health condition I can't promise to tend it beyond the OP atm.

Owls own reading causes distress and so whatever anyone else does is also going to cause distress I imagine. We are witnesses to their personal drama.

There is another 632 messages to go, so we have many more before the final word..............

Word

Its the final countdown

Doo de do do...doody do do do

We do not need to stop talking.

I don't want the final word.

I want to know when common sense will prevail.

What have women done to men to justify this fuck fest!

www.change.org/p/tell-san-francisco-public-library-to-remove-exhibit-of-weapons-intended-to-kill-feminists

I defend Owls right to swim in peace.

I defend women's rights not to be attacked with an axe.

Where are all the common sense people in the media? Are they all on a fucking fag break!

not the last word

(I was just being mean to the troll persistent person - happy to cede all last words while conversation is productive!)

I don't know what debate there is to be had here. The OP wanted to know if women should just deal with men in their spaces, lots of us said no. The same discussion is happening on at least one other current thread. Do they expect our answer to change if they just keep relentlessly asking the same question? It's having the opposite effect, we become more incensed they won't take No for an answer and other women see what theyre doing and peak themselves.

There is no way for men to not seem like gross rapey creeps when they wont take a woman's no for an answer. I would hate to be seen as a gross rapey creep. Why are they okay with it?

"I don't know what debate there is to be had here"

In the same hushed voice as people say "think of the children" I would say "think of the lurkers"

I wonder if as women we are all at different stages on a path....a) those who think nothing is wrong....b) those who know it is wrong but feel they can do nothing.... c) those who want to do something but not sure what ...d) those seeking to find agreement on anything...e) those who will take control and change the situation...

I do think on these discussions we are not just talking to people with opposing views, we are talking to each other.

You are all braver than me.

The debate is whether women have too many rights, but admitting that would give the game away.

When you've always been privileged, equality feela like oppression.

So many men know that equality is right but can't help feeling oppressed as their privilege is lessened even a little. They know it is wrong to believe that women have too many rights but when an idealogy comes along allowing them to semi-legitimately regain some lost privilege, well, some of them go for it.

TRA shite is like crack for the dude bros.

The sign of a healthy male is one who is prepared to give something up of value to themselves for the greater good - any volunteers?

"So many men know that equality is right but can't help feeling oppressed as their privilege is lessened even a little."

What on earth does that look like, and how on earth would you know?

mad Listening to the words they say, observing the things they do. It is really very obvious a lot of the time when you pay attention. There are plenty of men who will say it directly too. NAMALT obviously.

I'm not saying you don't have a point, just that I can't ground it out into any experience I recognise.

Also privilege, oppressed, equality are very subjective terms. I still don't really identify with any 'privilege' in any personal way.

We share privileges like we live in a 1st world democracy. Why should I feel bad about that?

(Are we talking about 'men' as in '18+ students'? I think our definitions may be at odds here, too, and would explain my confusion)

Also privilege, oppressed, equality are very subjective terms. I still don't really identify with any 'privilege' in any personal way.

Class. Analysis.

That is what privilege is a useful concept for.

We know when yet another media report comes out on widespread abuse of women or girls and within a week they begin giving column inches to men who moan about how #metoo has gone too far in reducing men's privilege to harass women in the workplace.

"Class analysis is research in sociology, politics and economics from the point of view of the stratification of the society into dynamic classes. It implies that there is no universal or uniform social outlook, rather that there are fundamental conflicts that exist inherent to how society is currently organized."

I didn't know this, so Google is my friend. But judging you by your Way.Of.Punctuation.And.Emphasis. sealed the deal for me: Abstract Theory is attempting to translate itself into applied Practice. You and I are at each end of this line. I'm all about pragmatism and application, so a pure theory like this lacks my usual anchors. This is an opportunity to see the line as less of a rope in a game of tug-of-war, but more like a see-saw where we can meet somewhere in the middle.

Also, I'm not a student, which makes all the difference and will probably mean we won't agree and are unlikely to understand each other.

This is a bit sad, b/c I always like seeing the journey of Thoughts as they become Things and seeing what gets lost or added in the translation. In RL, this is pretty much what I pay my bills with.

All yours.:)

Also, I'm not a student, which makes all the difference and will probably mean we won't agree and are unlikely to understand each other.

I'm not a student now, and I'm from a working class background. My father has worked all his life in the construction industry. Believe me, I understand you. I can't speak for you but I don't assume anything.

"I'm not a student now,"

I get you, I should have added "...and I'm not a graduate either".

"Non-uni types are unlikely to teach themselves formal methods of Social Research." is my observation.

Im not a student either

It doesnt mean i cant grasp 'difficult 'concepts should i feel the need

I rarely feel the need

I'm not sure what the point of this exchange is.

Give me a point for at least being honest about what I think:

Student + world experience = adult (applied, negotiated activity) = interested and relatable

Student - world experience = child (theory, dream, expectations) = they're not my kids so who cares.

This is my honest, default, generalised baseline opinion, and is based largely on ignorance and apathy towards students, and probably a chip on my shoulder that I never was one. It remains negotiable!

Not you Rufus

I'm not sure what the point of this thread is and keep being surprised it's still going and going and going