Reconciling competing rights

[GaspingShark]

Let me start by saying I do know what it's like to have my experience disbelieved, invalidated and gaslighted on an large scale, though not as a trans person or a victim of sexual assault. I don't have PTSD but I do know what it's like to have triggerable sources of distress, again, not as a trans person or a victim of sexual assault.

For me, equal rights must include the right to define your own experience, without gatekeepers, and to be very hesitant to consider people delusional.

So I am unsure about this. I would be ashamed of trans friends seeing me saying stuff such as "I err on the side of including them as much as possible", because I don't think that kind of recognition is mine to confer.

OTOH, I don't know if therefore that means I'm not recognising sexual assault survivors distressed by the fear of male people in women-only contexts.

Is this reconcilable, or does it mean one side just has to grin and bear it? I'll read this thread carefully but due to my bad management of a health condition I can't promise to tend it beyond the OP atm.

Your big post here recently was word salad Mad. There is no way to argue with someone who doesn't make a clear argument. You do that and you might get a better response.

@JoanSummers & all
I would have stayed shtum if this debate hadn't became all about personalities, not issues. I called it out. The issues matter too much. Where else is this debate happening?

The Topic is 'reconciliation. It was angering and frustrating...The OP wasn't woman enough, not lesbian enough, whatever. At one point, she also ID'd as a 'scruffy duckling'...I was surprised no-one asked her to lay an egg.

(There is seriously something wrong if I am saying "I am only here for Feminist Debate.")

The OP wasn't woman enough, not lesbian enough, whatever.

Actually that was what she said herself. In pretty much those words. She used it to deflect and derail people's responses. No one cares about her identity.

The OP refused to answer their own question about who has more rights to women's space - men who id as women, or actual women who would be distressed at having men in their space. The best OP could do was mumble "I dunno" and cast aspersions on women in this category. They said there should be a third space for trans id'ing ppl but refused to answer whether that space should be sex segregated or even what they thought sex segregation is for at all. The OP was rude to posters answering their questions and ruder to posters asking some of their own back. Their behaviour was highly suspect and familiar and several women noticed that.

Mad - you called out nothing. You wrote a post full of nonsense, the only thing I could make out was that you were pleased to have an opportunity to have a go some women. I get the impression this is a hobby of yours? Do the other boys not let you play in their sandpit?

Pfft...I've met guard dogs with more faith in human nature than this debate has encountered. Barely anyone here (that matters, ie not me) is interested in 'Reconciliation' except the OP. I think OP has found her answers - and you have your proud moment, yet again.

Perhaps next time...

[insert gone-with-the-wind Flounce jpeg here]

I don't have any interest in supporting mens rights to ignore women's boundaries and force themselves into women's spaces, no.

The OP doesn't have any interest in supporting women's rights to set boundaries or have our own spaces, not in the long term anyway, but they will begrudgingly allow us our space in the short term until we become enlightened enough to share.

There isn't really a point of reconciliation possible here.

As for faith in human nature - dudes like you are the reason why women have to be skeptical about human nature. And I think you get a kick out of that, tbh.

and you have your proud moment, yet again.

What does this mean? Is this sneering sarcasm?

The OP asked
Is this reconcilable, or does it mean one side just has to grin and bear it?

The answer here is we refuse to grin and bear it. OP was on the women grin and bear it side so it's going to be an unpleasant chat, as we are on the men grin and bear their own fucking problems side.

What is reconciliation? This isn't a fucking tiff we have had, buy us some flowers and we will give in.

But please do get all passive aggressive about dogs etc. I've met more dogs that understand the the meaning of the word no than I have men on these feminist boards, that's for sure.

www.refinery29.uk/swimming-pools-for-trans-people

This person expends many words about their own inability to live with their body. They can't cope with their own body. It's the wrong body

And yet, I have to, I have to be forced to cope with the body they can't cope with. It's the wrong body to me too, but that is not ok to them, apparently, that is misguided fear mongering from me. They can't react to themselves without dysphoria but I have to pretend there is no dysphoria, a man is a woman.

This cannot be reconciled externally as the irreconcilability is inside this person.

[Hi! Real Me here - Yeah, that's me, mr. fucking sarcasm here drips like an old rusty tap! I've spent almost 3 decades annoying the same woman and now i need more women to annoy]
[sarcasm off]
"dudes like you are the reason why women have to be skeptical about human nature. "
A lack of humanity in the face of adversity makes you part of the problem, not the solution. C'est la vie for everyone.

["And I think you get a kick out of that, tbh." That says more about you than me. Sorry if me not being here for thrills,etc. leaves you confused]

This cannot be reconciled externally as the irreconcilability is inside this person.

Yep.

This whole argument can be summed up as men expecting women to do the work for them.

Not confused, you're definitely here for the kicks. You're still in your twenties?? It usually takes decades to build up to the tedious misogyny you're managing, your dad must be so proud.

And on that note, Im bored now.

It's really weird how mumsnet tolerates these woman baiting trolls.

Confused.

Bored, I can't believe.

Ask me why I'm looking on MN for a platform on this topic instead of somewhere/anywhere else.

I hate scary men, especially in a beard and lipstick and will die before i refer to them as 'she'. And you think you're upset when these clowns show up?

[I wish I was in my 20s. That one hurt.]

It's really weird how mumsnet tolerates these woman baiting trolls.

I think they reliably perform a QED function for all of our arguments, tbh.

"arguments" as in what couples do, when there is only anger and frustration and any original point was forgotten hours ago?

"arguments" as in a constructive tool for communication and growth?

I can do either, the problem is so can anyone else, at any point. Perhaps the expectations here are too varied.

I was talking to Joan about arguments, not you, MadBad. You're the QED.

Treat me like a wasp in the room if you like, but when I've gone, I hope you will still hear a faint buzzing.

What's he saying?

I can never understand his posts.

I can never understand his posts.

It's all the fucking buzzing!

Its a wasp...thats giant!!

Im not speaking to anyone who doesnt get that reference

Men who think theyre showing how smart they are by being incomprehensible and talking down to women are ten a penny.

When I was a bit younger it used to drive me nuts because I felt obliged to argue with them but as I've aged it's become essier for me to ignore and walk away.

They want a reaction I think, it's the adult equivalent of schoolyard harassment pulling pigtails or snapping the backs of bras. Not dismissing the seriousness of those at that age, they're a big deal then, but part of that is being trapped with it and having adults look the other way.