Marks & Spencer protest

[invisibleoldwoman]

Here is an email sent to M&S today.

"I needed new bras. Normally I go to one of your stores, get fitted, get advice and buy several. Have a look around generally and maybe coffee or lunch in the cafe. Now, I cannot deal with the stress of worrying about whether I will have to deal with a male fitter, or men in the changing rooms. So I have bought my bras somewhere I don't have to deal with this. I have decided not to use your online shop as I do not wish to support a company that makes it impossible for me to feel comfortable visiting a changing room or asking for a personal service."

I have decided to send this sort of feedback everytime I fail to buy something somewhere where they have gone along with the self-id policy.

M&S bra fitting needs to be swerved because it is shit

They use the 'add 4 inches' method, which leads to badly fitting bras.

MNetters should actually swerve that, and use shops which fit correctly. Or measure themselves and buy from anywhere (Asda bras are remarkably good if you're in a budget).

I don't see M&S telling men with a 32 inch waist and average backside that they should buy trousers with an elasticated 36 inch waist (but cut narrower across the bum so they apparently fit but aren't terribly comfy to wear)

Angua yes I agree. Anyone driven out of the M&S bra fitting service should thank their lucky stars. And do not send your teen daughters there to be fitted either- they are useless and you will be setting your daughters up for a lifetime of ill fitting bra wearing.
You’re better off getting a range of sizes and trying them on in your locked cubicle and buying the one that actually fits.
According to their measures I am a 36B. In real life- a 32DD.

As for sex segregation Pratchet I do support that for safety reasons in certain spaces. Shop changing rooms that are staffed are actually not a place where I think it’s essential. Many shops have had unisex changing for years and cubicles are individual so no need to get undressed in front of males of opposite sex. I have also seen no evidence from anyone here (despite asking for it) either that M&S have male-born bra fitters (a rumour on a website is not evidence) or that they even have unisex changing rooms.

I think pick your battles. If you start a petition about something like this (with no proof), how on earth do you expect people to take you seriously on issues such as prisons?

Picking battles has not gone well for us: give an inch and a mile is taken. We are budging up until we are pushed off the bench. No more.

Absolutely angua

I was having the exact same rant to my friend in M&S the other day

She was picking up a 34b bra

She is nearly half my size, really small back and approximately 4 stone lighter than me and i wear a 34f/g

@Pratchet totally agree "Whether or not a particular person exists is no reason for you to abandon the principle of sex segregated space on behalf of the rest of us. That's rather arrogant."

I buy my bras in Sainsbury. No fitter, no fitting room. I try on at home. Does anyone think my human rights are bring breached? And if so, by whom?

Oops I thought it was fact? I thought somebody had gone for a fitting in London and had been offered a male?

Also, I feel sorry for the poor sod at the end of all this - they may have had no say in where they were posted. Whatever, they would be vetted and trained. And how would it look if M&S just parked the transperson somewhere 'safe' or 'inoffensive'?

There are lots and lots of roles that M&S could assign a staff member who's trans and male to other then the bra department. Is it that you can't think of any, or that you're absolutely determined that TIMs be allowed to do whatever they like even if it's not to the liking of the customers who in theory they're there to assist?

It might be but nobody has provided a single link to it happening. Someone on MN saying it happened to them is not proof. I can make up whatever I like on here and were I minded to do so, could post stories about trans bra fitters to whip up a frenzy on here.

Pratchet I do see your point but it’s already backfiring. Even GC posters on here have expressed discomfort at threads like this which are based on rumour or ‘what ifs’. Additionally there is the fact that the GRA already exists. Like it or not, you will never get a situation where the law does not recognise transgender rights or where it says that a man cannot legally become a woman. There are some narrow areas where protections and policies can be fought for- prisons, rape crisis centres, DV refuges and in medical settings. I prefer to concentrate on those rather than ‘what ifs’ but I do understand that feelings run high on this. I just don’t know whether public opinion would support the changing room issue.

The only way to find out is to ask the public, rather than attempting to shut down any discussion of it by accusing people attempting to discuss it of being horrible bigots (who're making other GC women look bad, if it's a conversation in this space specifically that the speaker isn't happy about).

The only way to find out is to ask the public, rather than attempting to shut down any discussion of it by accusing people attempting to discuss it of being horrible bigots (who're making other GC women look bad, if it's a conversation in this space specifically that the speaker isn't happy about)

Susan has not done that. She has pointed out there is no evidence M&S even have unisex changing rooms or trans women bra fitters yet there are posters taking it as gospel this is the case and calling for petitions and boycotts.

There have been multiple people who've encountered the trans bra fitter at the Oxford St M&S. I'm not about to accuse them all of being liars.

My 13 year old was fitted there, and the women fitting was lovely. I am a bra nerd, so I do know how to properly fit a bra, but their girls’ bras are cut to the traditional sizing model, so the 30 back is smaller than a modern adult bra. She did need a couple altered but she wouldn’t be able to wear a 30 in any other bra, she wouldn’t even be a 28. ( she’s 24 around her ribs )

I would have had some interest in the general themes of the women's rights versus trans rights and have found mumsnet quite illuminating at times for scenarios I wouldn't have thought of.
However I'm finding this thread and the arguments within absolutely ridiculous and to my view it doesn't help with the more serious issues at hand.

That's interesting, that they're not trying to push younger girls into the stupidly ill-fitting sizing. What is it that they think happens later on that requires a shift to the add 4 inches sizing?

As I understand it the equality act allows for single sex provison where having one sex only is a proportional response? Surely that would include situations where women are alone, semi naked and having their breasts touched ? If it doesn’t then it bloody well should. I have absolutely no issue with a TIM helping me with any other sort of clothing, but I would feel really uncomfortable in a tiny cubicle having a bra fitted.

Angry, the old system did work properly, but something happened with back sizes as bigger cups became the norm. I wonder if they had a band length that didn’t allow for cup width. I have bras here from the early 90s when larger cups started coming in, and the band size is tiny compared with a 30 now. I wore the very first 30 bras available, they fitted, and I had a 25 inch rib cage. Now I am fatter, nearly 27, and I wear a 28 in everything bar Ewa.

@italiangreyhound Bravissimo girl here, 34HH on right now. Sainsbury's don't even come close to my size. I need to make a store trip and try on every time I buy a bra, because it's quite a trek to the nearest Bravissimo to make returns to and I've tried the mail order thing and not been able to get it right even in months of sending parcels back and forth (also, return postage is expensive). Just because you have the good fortune of wearing a supermarket size, don't assume that we are all as lucky as you. It's girls getting their first bra and women with outlandish bra sizes who need female fitters and private changing rooms, and who will suffer if these are threatened.

Yeah, my stepmother sent me some M&S bras in what should be the right size, but the band is massive, and also stretchier than would be ideal.

Knickers were crap compared to what they used to be too so there seems to have been a decline in quality across the board.

I think it's reasonable in the current climate to ask questions of companies such as M&S about their policy regarding sex segregated spaces but it's not helpful to frame it around men/transgender people being bra fitters without concrete evidence this has occurred.

I do see the cause for concern though because if gender is enshrined in law superseding sex in every conceivable area then it is feasible that in the next decade any job that a sex exemption would have previously applied to could be held by someone male but who doesn't identify as a man.

Yeah there are multiple stores I go to locally that have rather stylish young gay men working in them who'll check on you in the changing rooms, bring you alternate sizes, etc. and I'm fine with that. This is for jeans, shirts, etc though, not for lingerie.

Also I think a key point to make is that just because I (or any other woman) am fine with say the young guy who works at Hipster Boutique That Sells Jeans tapping on the door to ask me if I need another size, potentially being there if I step out of the locked cubicle to look in the big mirror in the hallway, offering feedback on fit, and so on, that doesn't mean that all women are, or that they should be mocked or shamed for not being OK with it. And part of the reason I'm fine with it is that all of those stores do have cubicles with doors that lock, changing rooms with curtains that may or may not close all the way are a different scenario.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/ms-caught-in-transgender-row-after-actress-liz-carrs-friend-refused-entry-to-changing-room-a3756136.html

Interestingly, it was at the Oxford Street store that M&S a couple of months ago refused entry to a trans person according to this press report. They must have a very inconsistent policy there.

Obviously that press report is also based on hearsay and cannot be treated as gospel. But it shows that in respect of that particular store, there are conflicting stories being told.

I'd like to add that those of us with huge norks are subjected to fetishisation and sexualisation already, e.g. "nice tits" from strange men and assumptions that we are more sexually-available than our smaller-busted sisters. The idea that my breast size is not a choice and has nothing to do with my sexuality or personality does not occur to these men.

So forgive me for being more sensitive than most about a male (which a trans woman is, ain't biology a bitch) being in my personal space whilst I'm topless and touching and looking at the same breasts that are weaponised against me by harassers, especially if there is even the slightest possibility that said TW is autogynephiliac and not gender dysphoric.

I think the sizing shift , as women got bigger and started needing bigger cup sizes, was a learning curve for bra companies, and isn’t consistent. Some places will use the current way of measuring ribs to get band size, some the traditional way, which was based on the measurement around the bust, so essentially a dress size, with allowance for cup variation ( ponders if anyone but me is interested in this,..) so you would be say a 34” (blouse size), and then a standard or a full cup. This then turned into the a,b,c system to get a better fit as technology and fabrics changed. I have my mothers 50s bras here. She was a 32, pretty much a current size 6, so a very small back, then a medium cup. Bands have got larger, and slightly more stretchy. If they had adapted for the style and fabric shifts then the traditional system would still work perfectly well. The reason it fails is that band size changes with cup size, yet most makers don’t adapt the band. Polish bras also grade the width of the actual wire of the cup , to change respective to back size, which is why they often suit small backed women with larger cups, because UK bras don’t do this.

The dress size plus cup is used by bravissimo for the clothing range. That is the same principle as the traditional system of bra making.