Marks & Spencer protest

[invisibleoldwoman]

Here is an email sent to M&S today.

"I needed new bras. Normally I go to one of your stores, get fitted, get advice and buy several. Have a look around generally and maybe coffee or lunch in the cafe. Now, I cannot deal with the stress of worrying about whether I will have to deal with a male fitter, or men in the changing rooms. So I have bought my bras somewhere I don't have to deal with this. I have decided not to use your online shop as I do not wish to support a company that makes it impossible for me to feel comfortable visiting a changing room or asking for a personal service."

I have decided to send this sort of feedback everytime I fail to buy something somewhere where they have gone along with the self-id policy.

There was a young man who in retrospect had very obvious AGP who used to post on a libfem site I was on who'd try to join in conversations about bras. Turned out later that lots of the women there found the way he did so creepy, intrusive, or just off in a way they couldn't make sense of at the time, but yay female socialization, nobody said anything till we all talked about it privately later.

A male with AGP is the last person I would ever want as a bra fitter, and I'd rather not share a more general changing room in a lingerie dept with them either. If people think that makes me mean or bigoted or whatever, oh well!

It is so ingrained in me to be polite that I really don’t know if I would have the courage to say no if faced with a male bra fitter. I imagine myself, half naked and inwardly cringing, politely saying thank you and desperately trying to find a way out. I would really rather not be put in that position to start with.

There have been multiple people who've encountered the trans bra fitter at the Oxford St M&S. I'm not about to accuse them all of being liars

Yet it took until page 8 before this fact is posted- with no verifiable information.

I've never used the services of a bra fitter, if I did I certainly wouldn't want anyone I perceived as being male doing the job. I can't understand the logic of employing a transwoman in this role, they must be aware that some women will be uncomfortable and say no thanks, Hardly good for business.
As a general rule, I only use changing rooms that have lockable single cubicles. This isn't even anything to do with transpeople, more to do with women that don't respect other women's privacy and therefore think it's fine for their own partners or older sons to be in women's changing rooms. I don't buy stuff on spec and return it if doesn't fit either, so any shop that doesn't have a changing room that I feel secure in has already lost my business.

If you now want to call me a liar too, Lass, that's fine. Not very polite, but oh well.

Many of us read multiple threads on mumsnet, and this isn't the first time this issue has come up.

I think what is important is for women to retain an element of choice. We all accept for instance that there are male doctors and nurses and that often they will need to perform very intimate examinations, far more intimate than getting changed into a bra. (There are also plenty of stories of some of them abusing patients, so I don't think people are necessarily reassured by the fact that they have a code of conduct (in case anyone throws that one out there)). I have never heard anyone say that we should not have male obstetricians or gynaecologists or should not allow men onto female hospital wards, where women are in far more vulnerable positions. The point is that women can request a female HCP should they wish and they do not have to be intimately examined by a man (unless it is an emergency). So with bra fitters who may be trans, there is not a major issue unless women are being forced to be measured by this individual. They are not (and we have no proof that this person even exists).

Did you read SirVix's comment, Susan? I'm not OK with women being put in that position.

It's grimly fascinating how many women are determined to put the happiness of a tiny group of male people ahead of the happiness of women as a group. Nobody actually needs to work as a bra fitter. There are other jobs that a person could take.

It is so ingrained in me to be polite that I really don’t know if I would have the courage to say no if faced with a male bra fitter. I imagine myself, half naked and inwardly cringing, politely saying thank you and desperately trying to find a way out.

But would you have that courage if you were lying half undressed in a hospital bed and a male nurse was caring for you? It's already the case that a lot of healthcare, including intimate care, is not necessarily performed by same sex people and I would suggest that this would be a more pressing concern for someone who feels uncomfortable about being in any state of undress around someone male. If you cannot refuse a bra fitting, would you also not be able to refuse healthcare from a male?

Did you read SirVix's comment, Susan? I'm not OK with women being put in that position

I did and I have answered it. I can see that but surely it is something that crops up in other settings too. If you feel unable to refuse a bra fitting, how would you deal with requesting a female HCP.

I had to go to the out of hours doctor a few months ago. It was a man. I was on my own in the room and he asked me to undress so that he could listen to my chest and perform an examination. In that particular case, there was no female alternative. Had I not wanted to see the male doctor, I would have had to go elsewhere (to A&E presumably).

It's grimly fascinating how many women are determined to put the happiness of a tiny group of male people ahead of the happiness of women as a group. Nobody actually needs to work as a bra fitter. There are other jobs that a person could take.

No man needs to be a gynaecologist either. Maybe the solution is that M&S have a duty to check that women are comfortable with a male-born person and will offer an alternative if they are not.

I had a male midwife, and I’ve had a male consultant do a breast exam, and internal scans. The difference being that I wasn’t alone with any of these men, or in a tiny lockable space.
I don’t feel I need to justify why I find male people, in certain situations, frightening. I think enough women will share my experience of male people to feel the same. I wouldn’t like to be alone anywhere with a man I dont know, in a small lockable space - factor in being half naked and I feel stressed at the mere idea tbh.

Indeed you have now answered it, and in a way that indicates very little empathy. I'm lucky enough never to have been sexually abused, but I wonder how to part about refusing intimate medical treatment from a man reads to women who have been, given that it made my eyebrows shoot halfway to my hairline.

Not only is the suggestion that M&S first offer a male fitter, then offer the ability to decline and ask for a female alternative, unwieldy and likely to cost extra money to implement, it would currently result in them being labeled transphobic by many TRAs.

"especially if there is even the slightest possibility..." does no-one here think that M&S Lawyers would have considered exactly these sort of risks? D'you think their attitude was 'well lets just roll the dice and see,'? If anything inappropriate ever happened they would be toast. Lawyers hate risk.

I don't think it is lack in empathy. I have certainly been asked to undress by male GPs where there is nobody else there. I completely empathise with women who have been the victim of sexual assault and I in no way think they should be made to do something they feel uncomfortable with.

My surprise is that the focus is an unsubstantiated rumour about fitting room attendants rather than e.g. healthcare professionals. According to the BMJ, 18 doctors were struck off for rape or sexual assault between 2014 and 2017. It is obviously not the case that all male on female healthcare is supervised at all. So why is the emphasis not being directed there? Why are people not questioning why a man would want to be a midwife or why he would want to be a gynaecologist? The way this is being presented is as if vulnerable victims of abuse are being forced to submit to undressing in front of men. I don't think that is the case at all.

I support e.g. rape crisis centres and DV refuges being completely natal-female spaces. I in no way lack empathy towards women. I have also done a significant amount of volunteering in a refuge.

We are capable of focusing on multiple different issues. Issues related to intimate healthcare for women have been discussed before and no doubt will be again, but this thread is about M&S.

The part that you don't seem to be getting is that saying no is difficult for some women in some situations. SirVix tried to explain. She can't make you see it, and neither can I. I would suggest that on a feminist board empathy is a more appropriate response to the sharing of that kind of personal experience than attempts to shift the focus to well why aren't we talking about this other situation instead.

I am very assertive and have no problem saying no to men in any of the situations discussed here. That doesn't have to mean not being capable of understanding that not every woman finds that as easy to do as I do, or dismissing their concerns.

The part that you don't seem to be getting is that saying no is difficult for some women in some situations. SirVix tried to explain. She can't make you see it, and neither can I. I would suggest that on a feminist board empathy is a more appropriate response to the sharing of that kind of personal experience than attempts to shift the focus to well why aren't we talking about this other situation instead.

I can see it. I have my own personal experiences too. There is no need to portray me as someone throwing women under a bus. I have seen countless threads on shop changing rooms, toilets, girl guides, but very few actually on healthcare and the fact that (non-trans) males are very frequently on their own with female patients.

In this case we have no evidence that M&S employ a trans bra fitter. It stems from rumours on here about one store in London (which has counter-rumours that it is trans-unfriendly).

If I was an ordinary member of the public and saw serious engagement with the fact that at least 6 doctors per year are struck off for rape and proposed measures to deal with it, I would probably think that was a worthwhile and valid cause. If however I saw a protest and a letter addressed to a store which was based on some rumours online, I would not be so sympathetic.

People can of course discuss anything they like, but they can't then also be outraged and surprised when the outside world thinks hmmm actually maybe there is something in this accusation of transphobia.

People can be outraged and surprised about anything they like. That kind of comes with the territory of them being people and not necessarily seeing things the same way you do.

If you'd like a thread about the many issues with healthcare for women and how shit it is then there's nothing to stop you from starting one.

It's not backfiring - far from it. We are actually getting somewhere at last.

Why is that? It's because all the fudging and budging we used to do was based on untruths. It was based on 'well if you allow that, why not allow that?' 'We already use transwoman, why not use trans woman, why not then just take the trans off and use woman?' Etc etc for ever.

Our position now is based on truths.

A man is never a woman.
It is impossible to change sex.
Sex segregated spaces reduce risk for women and girls.

These are unarguable truths. We are finally getting somewhere when we stick to them.

I can't actually remember the gender of most of the HCPs that have poked and prodded me over the years. As a man, I've never asked for (or been offered) a 'same-sex' exam. I'm sure a few men feel differently, but on the whole its a non-issue IMO.

But then I've not been in many situations where I've felt put on-the-spot, expected to smile and agree and not complain, subdue my point of view, etc. while going about my daily business. I'd say that was pretty typical for blokes. And if a man did feel like that, he would be expected and encouraged to Solve That Problem, by any means and all haste.

I understand how women would feel like that, what I don't understand is how they can live like that.

How would you have known the gender? You would only have known the sex.

How you feel and what you understand is irrelevant to the need for sex segregated spaces.

@Pratchet My point was I didn't care either way, but could see why other people did.

Why is what I say irrelevant? Would you prefer a private echo-chamber to an open debate?

Okay, Pratchet I can only speak for academia where I currently work but it’s not getting very far there. You might think a university doesn’t matter much but a lot of academic research informs law and political policy. There is currently a 750k research project on gender and the law about to begin and i would be shocked if it doesn’t come down in favour of some sort of self-ID.
Having the odd GC article in the paper interspersed with lots of pro-trans ones isn’t huge progress.
Even GC academics are getting very cautious. Rebecca Reilly-Cooper seems to have adopted a much more moderate tone from her latest talk. Dr Julia Long does not appear to be employed at Angelia Ruskin anymore- I have no idea why this is the case though. It’s all well and good to say that biology is on your side when the GRA allows for biology to be overridden and a person to become the new gender legally. What is being suggested on this thread is that not even a person with a GRC would ever be permitted to work in the M&S changing rooms.

Do you think the fact that it's underwear for particular body-shapes that is under discussion sucks a lot of the ideology out of the argument in favour of pragmatism? If anyone with breasts can buy a bra, anyone with breasts can sell you one.

I'm going to admit I got it wrong earlier in this discussion and was too optimistic with my view that you can just say no to a transwoman bra fitter. Sorry.

I hadn't considered the difficulty a blind or partially sighted female shopper would have in saying they don't want a bra fitting today after all if they encountered a transwoman bra fitter. They would have a degree of uncertainty as to whether they were trans due to the lack of visual cues however the voice would throw them off. As sight loss increases with age it affects more elderly women who also have less access to social media and won't know that it's a possibility. This would put them in a very uncomfortable position of thinking it's a woman then having various other cues telling them it's a man as they are being fitted and not having any idea what's going on.

Acadaemia has been unbelievably weak and in thrall to transadvocacy. They face there is now even an argument is progress.

Mad: it's irrelevant because the evidence on sex segregation and safety is well established (and acknowledged by Amnesty and th UN). You can choose mixed sex: there your preference is relevant. It is not relevant when it comes to deciding on mixed sex for anyone else.

And before anyone says blind women would have someone with them or have a white stick so the store would realise, that is very much not the case. Many partially sighted people are not obviously disabled to the causal observer. Not all blind people use sticks and guide dogs.