Marks & Spencer protest

[invisibleoldwoman]

Here is an email sent to M&S today.

"I needed new bras. Normally I go to one of your stores, get fitted, get advice and buy several. Have a look around generally and maybe coffee or lunch in the cafe. Now, I cannot deal with the stress of worrying about whether I will have to deal with a male fitter, or men in the changing rooms. So I have bought my bras somewhere I don't have to deal with this. I have decided not to use your online shop as I do not wish to support a company that makes it impossible for me to feel comfortable visiting a changing room or asking for a personal service."

I have decided to send this sort of feedback everytime I fail to buy something somewhere where they have gone along with the self-id policy.

[thebewilderness]

Nothing personal Susan. Yours is simply an example of the behavior that is quite common.

[AngryAttackKittens]

Sounds like an attempt to shift the Overton window to me (the research and the way it's worded). Proceed as if your way of framing things is already the accepted norm and hope that it will become so.

[SusanBunch]

Beau Yes, it is statements like that that make me a bit suspicious as to what the conclusions of this study are actually going to be. I certainly don't think they will be that biology is the only relevant factor.
I must confess I am not entirely clear either what she means, but evidently the people at the ESRC gave her the money.

Here is a link to some other published work by her:
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jols.12000
It's just the abstract but she seems to be saying that she thinks gender is something allocated to people by law and legal processes. I haven't read the article though. My issue would be how can we both eliminate gender from law and also use it to regulate gender discrimination? It's waaaay too late for me to start reading this tonight though.

[AngryAttackKittens]

When 2 academics coming from different perspectives both say they don't understand what's meant that's not a great sign in terms of reassuring me that this research is going to proceed in an unbiased way and produce useful results.

[MsBeaujangles]

Dear God Susan, I know it's late but that abstract.....what on earth!
Perhaps the full article provides some definitions? The abstract suggests that sex has been literally written out of the narrative.

I have noticed this happening with some organisations' equalities statements and specific policies. They list gender as a protected characteristic rather than sex. The EA definitely refers to sex.

I am going to get some sleep and look again tomorrow. I'll try and access the full article.

[AngryAttackKittens]

I don't understand how a gender could be assigned at birth, based on the definition of gender that this person is likely using (totally unrelated to sex). Do they think the doctor flips a coin? It's not like you can ask a newborn.

[Italiangreyhound]

Susan "By way of explanation, I was having a tough time offline (not that it's a justification or whatever, just an explanation). Since then, I have not reacted with any anger or rage so surely if 'pilloried' is OTT, so is 'enraged'." I'm sorry you were having a tough time. It's hard sometimes there are always things in 'real' life that are causing us issues. Sometimes I switch off from all this but eventually come back!

Plus my comments about academia are not aimed at you specifically.

@MadBadDaddy "... thank you for saying, so simply, what I've been trying to say." Thank you for engaging. I wish more trans people or more males would engage in discussion. We really want and need discussion on this.

[Italiangreyhound]

@MsBeaujangles "I genuinely have no idea what Professor Cooper is going on about and I have a PhD in Psychology and supervise doctoral research. I am supervising research in the area of gender non conformity at the moment and have examined doctoral research in this area. Sex and gender are always defined separately and the relationship between the two discussed. My mind is blown by the idea of gender as a legal status at birth. I clearly don't understand the law. I thought sex was a protected characteristic, as was gender reassignment."

I'd like to know what 'version' of gender they are going to use. Is it sticking to what we expect from girls or boys, men or women?

"People are observed to be male or female at birth. We don't assign a species, we easily observe that a baby is a human and that it is male or female, or we observe that there is an anatomical anomaly that prevents observation of the sex. People just are male or female from conception."

Maybe the next thing will be anger at being assigned 'human at birth'.

"We know nothing of their gender identity until they can express it."

Isn't gender identity just observable traits? And who is diving these into categories? And are they using the two, male and female or are they going with the word salad of Facebook?

I found this very helpful for me, in explaining what gender means. I recognize not everyone will agree! And knowing your high level qualifications I am slightly nervous to post it, but here you go!

snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com/post/114684943185/social-construct-masterpost

@SusanBunch thank you for engaging, I've found your comments very helpful. I think we do need to understand what is going on in the minds of people who wish to erase biological sex. I'd like to think they have the best of motives, but I fear not.

[Italiangreyhound]

@MsBeaujangles the 70s and 80s saw 'gender' and expectations around sex all mixed up, the swimming hippies, men with long hair and then the Princess and the Pirates and men with make up. We were going in the right direction. What happened?

[Italiangreyhound]

swinging not swimming!

[SusanBunch]

Thank you Italiangreyhound!

[MsBeaujangles]

Thanks for the link @Italiangreyhound, it was interesting. I saw someone refer to money when discussing social constructs on a post the other day and thought it was a good vehicle for explaining. Money is a far less abstract concept than gender identity, it interfaces with the physical world in a far more direct way.

When writing a thesis in the social sciences, students need to explain how reality is understood in relation to what is being discussed (they take up an ontological and epistemological position). So, if they have studied/are writing about 'motivation', they may declare there is something called motivation and it is a universal reality (this is a realist stance). They may take up a relativist stance and state that motivation is a social construct, that society has a shared understanding of what is being talked about when we discuss motivation, but this does not make it an objective reality. Here, the construct/word 'motivation' didn't exist, would we experience it? Perhaps we would replace it with notions of laziness, fatigue, procrastination etc.

Both stances state that 'motivation' is real. One states that it relates to a universal truth, the other states that reality is socially constructed.

I find the debate about gender identity fascinating- and the 'transwomen are women' idea. As much as my students grapple with understanding ontology and epistemology (the study of what reality is and how the various takes on reality can be explored), these FWR discussions make me aware of how the idea of ontology and epistemology provides great scaffolding for making sense of, and exploring these ideas. It provides great fodder for teaching it as well - the students are interested in the topic.

The fascinating thing, well to me anyway, is that we can (and do) take up different ontological stances depending on what we are talking about when it comes to social phenomena (less so when talking about the physical world). Different perspectives can pack a real punch (e.g people stating that dyslexia is a label given to people who experience difficulties something that society places value on v it is a medical condition)

I, like most people, believe sex is a universal truth, the observable physical properties involved lend themselves to this. Some TRAs try and state that it is socially constructed. I am not sure that they will get far with convincing others of this because observable physical properties are involved.

In the case of gender identity, I think of it as a 'relative reality' not a realist one, but I don't think of it as made up. Some people do have a gender identity, the fact I don't, or haven't noticed I have one, doesn't make me question this. It makes little sense to me to say GI doesn't exist. Many TRAs seem to be making the case for GI being a universal truth, but again, I don't think this will get far because of the level of subjectivity involved.

[MadBadDaddy]

Thank you for your fancy book-learning words. If there ever is a reconciliation between Trans' needs vs. everyone else's, then I'd put money on it emerging from MN before anywhere else (if MN survives...)

One point though: I've spent most of my life without feeling the need to engage with the type of questions raised (about Trans, not feminism). I didn't have the answers, (or even completely believe that there were answers), or any definitions for my own experiences. This was OK though, because I felt I didn't need them (up yours, 80's society!) and I should learn to live with the mystery of it all. The Quakers say: "The written word kills, the spirit gives life" and so thats how I rolled.

Depressingly, it's not like that now. Now it's all being written down and signed into law, risk-assessed and compromised. Now we need definitions, explanations, justifications, etc. and I'm still as clueless as I've ever been.

Personally, I blame the Internet.

[Rufustheconstantreindeer]

i blame the Internet

Yep

[MariaMacLachlan]

invisibleoldwoman Sorry if I've missed this somewhere in this thread, I've just skimmed through but do you know for a fact that M&S employs or is willing to employ male bra-fitters?

[Italiangreyhound]

@MsBeaujangles

"When writing a thesis in the social sciences, students need to explain how reality is understood in relation to what is being discussed (they take up an ontological and epistemological position). So, if they have studied/are writing about 'motivation', they may declare there is something called motivation and it is a universal reality (this is a realist stance). They may take up a relativist stance and state that motivation is a social construct, that society has a shared understanding of what is being talked about when we discuss motivation, but this does not make it an objective reality."

So I googled the words and I think I know from your 'motivation' example what you mean.

So the thing for me is the legal implications and the social implications. Even without the legal implications (of actually having 'gender' self id) we already have the social implicatipnd (girl guides now take Boyd who identify as girls, don't really want girls who don't identify as girls).

So a bit like the cartoon that shows girls like blue things and boys like green things so if a boy likes blue things he must be a girl, etc. The pressure to conform I'd there.

To me the question is not is 'gender' real it is..

Is it innate?
Well I see no evidence for that, no brain scan evidence, only evidence brains are plastic, and that maybe there is evidence for body or sexual dysphoria)

Does gender matterr?
Well in the words of the McCann chip advert, "love Doran't care about gender" (McCann chips, social reform who knew!!). Do no, I don't think it should matter legally, dress as you like, like what you like.

Can gender replace biological sex?
Well, no of course it cannot. And we need to say that loudly. Girls and women are oppressed with high heels, not because of them! (And a whole lot more)

So we need our academic institutions to stand up to this bollocks or you will be next, no one will trust you of you side with this madness, I really do believe that.

And you sound fab. So I hope you are sticking up for females in your institution.

[Italiangreyhound]

maybe there is brain scan evidence for body or sexual dysphoria

[Italiangreyhound]

@MadBadDaddy law does need to be written down, yes.

@SusanBunch thanks for your thanks.

And since you are in academia do you and
@MsBeaujangles know anything about the cultural revolution in China?

[SusanBunch]

Very little beyond basic facts I am afraid. I am not a historian. There might be others who do though- you could try Academics Corner on here.

[LassWiADelicateAir]

Sorry if I've missed this somewhere in this thread, I've just skimmed through but do you know for a fact that M&S employs or is willing to employ male bra-fitters?

One poster said there have been multiple people who've encountered the trans bra fitter at the Oxford St M&S but gave no details of who, when, what happened or where she heard of this.

[Italiangreyhound]

@SusanBunch the world was tipped upside down for China because of beliefs, it's very interesting. I think I know enough but it strikes me that when beliefs come into play, as opposed to facts, it doesn't bode well for anyone. Academics did badly under Chairman M.

I'd also say the heresy trials snd later witch trials etc of a few 100 years ago were pretty appalling (understatement of the decade).

When belief is placed above observable facts it can have massive repercussions, and I say that as a Christian.

[Italiangreyhound]

Chairman Mao Zedong I mean, of course!

[invisibleoldwoman]

@MariaMacLachlan

One or two people on this thread say that M&S changing rooms both male and female are now open to anyone. I don’t think it is certain that there is a male bra fitter employed. I thought it was but now can’t find the source.

I didn’t ask the question in my email to M&S. Just said I am not happy with it. In their reply they neither confirmed nor denied whether a TIM bra fitter is employed or if they will employ them.

The responses here and on the Trans unpeak thread show just how complex the issues are and I doubt if M&S and other retailers have thought about them or developed a properly thought out policy as to how it is all going to work.

[invisibleoldwoman]

PS LassWiADelicateAir posted

One poster said there have been multiple people who've encountered the trans bra fitter at the Oxford St M&S but gave no details of who, when, what happened or where she heard of this.

[MariaMacLachlan]

Thanks. Next time I'm in that neck of the woods, I might just go try on a bra...