Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Marks & Spencer protest

371 replies

invisibleoldwoman · 18/04/2018 14:39

Here is an email sent to M&S today.

"I needed new bras. Normally I go to one of your stores, get fitted, get advice and buy several. Have a look around generally and maybe coffee or lunch in the cafe. Now, I cannot deal with the stress of worrying about whether I will have to deal with a male fitter, or men in the changing rooms. So I have bought my bras somewhere I don't have to deal with this. I have decided not to use your online shop as I do not wish to support a company that makes it impossible for me to feel comfortable visiting a changing room or asking for a personal service."

I have decided to send this sort of feedback everytime I fail to buy something somewhere where they have gone along with the self-id policy.

OP posts:
Pratchet · 19/04/2018 19:04

If 'reasonable compromise' involves 'put up with men in your spaces or don't shop here' a lot of women will wonder about M and S' definition of 'reasonable'.

MadBadDaddy · 19/04/2018 19:11

I think that might be the long and short of it. Shops are business, at the end of the day.

Don't you think everyone deserves, if nothing else, dignified access to appropriate underwear for their bodies? Doesn't something like that count as 'basic human dignity?

spontaneousgiventime · 19/04/2018 19:19

There are a lot more biological women than there are transwomen and businesses need to remember that.

smithsinarazz · 19/04/2018 20:17

H'm, I have to say that having given birth, and therefore having had people of both sexes stick their fingers up my fanny, I don't really care about the changing rooms / hypothetical trans bra fitter issue myself. I do care if (and it's a big "if") M&S have done this because they can't be seen to be asking the question of whether TWAW and have decided to eliminate the setting where that question's relevant.

SpareRibFem · 19/04/2018 20:43

Being honest, unisex changing rooms with lockable doors seems like the way forward. I see a huge difference between store changing rooms which are supervised have security in store and low risk from a safety point of view and publicly accessible toilets which are often used as a safe place away from men and where you're more exposed.

If someone doesn't mind a transwoman bra fitter, they can chose to go ahead. I personally wouldn't but I've turned down female bra fitters that give off vibes of being a bit fixed about what style of bra they think is right for me.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 19/04/2018 20:49

Could you turn down a trans bra fitter, SpareRib, though, without creating a whole shitstorm of hate crime and finding yourself on the front page of the Daily Mail?
I suspect it wouldn't be accepted too passively.

Kyanite · 19/04/2018 20:51

Part of my last comment was quoted and commented on but not this part...this is relevant too and we may know that it is happening as some men like to make it audible, in they same way they like to comment on how we look.

"I know that it is a fetish to watch women in changing rooms, there will be men getting off just being in the cubicle next door."

SpareRibFem · 19/04/2018 20:58

But obviously if it bothers others raising it with the company is the right thing to do

SusanBunch · 19/04/2018 21:11

Could you turn down a trans bra fitter, SpareRib, though, without creating a whole shitstorm of hate crime and finding yourself on the front page of the Daily Mail?

Of course you can. It is such a myth that misgendering or refusing to be seen by a trans person is a hate crime. For the avoidance of doubt- it is not.

Hate crimes refer to someone committing a crime where there is evidence that they were motivated by race, sexuality, disability or transgender status. Unless you plan on assaulting some trans people, you will not be accused of a hate crime.

ScarletBegonias · 19/04/2018 21:26

Susan - okay, so not a hate crime. But as I understand it, there are things called 'hate incidents' too, which may not constitute crimes but which can be reported to the police and recorded.

What I don't understand is what follows from the police having recorded a hate incident. Does the person responsible get a warning of some kind?

SusanBunch · 19/04/2018 21:47

Susan - okay, so not a hate crime. But as I understand it, there are things called 'hate incidents' too, which may not constitute crimes but which can be reported to the police and recorded

Never heard of that. Please provide a link if you have one. Unless you mean harassment warning notices. Unless you decide to harass bra fitters, that won't happen either if you politely decline an offer for bra fitting.

As far as I can glean from this thread, there is no evidence that M&S employs a load of trans bra fitters and there is no evidence that they have changed their changing room policy. Everything seems to stem from rumours spread on here that one store had a trans bra fitter. Now there are also false rumours that women will be forced to be fitted with bras by trans people because otherwise they will be arrested for hate crimes.

Is this really something you want those accusing MN of transphobia to see if they visit the site?

SusanBunch · 19/04/2018 21:55

Apologies- now seen reference to hate incidents.

This involves things like abusive language, threats, graffiti, physical violence, online bullying etc. Unless you are planning on doing that to a bra fitter, I think you're fine and the police isn't going to be very interested.

ScarletBegonias · 19/04/2018 21:55

Susan
Here's a link:
www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/what-are-hate-incidents-and-hate-crime/

I wasn't especially concerned in the context of this thread. I'd just read what you said about hate crime and that reminded me that I didn't understand the significance of hate incidents generally.

daisychain01 · 19/04/2018 22:22

There's no way on God's earth that if you don't feel comfortable being served by any bra fitter that you couldn't exercise your human right to change your mind and walk away. Its absurd to say it could be a hate crime. You don't even need to say anything if you dont want just say thanks got to dash, my husband's waiting for me in Cafe Revive.

Really there's an awful lot of bollox on this thread today.

OlennasWimple · 19/04/2018 23:01

Transwomen who have been taking hormones for some time can grow breasts that need bras, transwomen who have had surgical implants can have breasts that need bras. There will also be transwomen (under the loose trans umbrella) who want to wear a bra regardless of need. Whether there are sufficient numbers to make it a viable business to only cater to this market, I don't know. Whether there are sufficient numbers for an existing underwear retailer, such as M&S, to develop a specific line and / or send their fitters on specialist training, again I don't know.

I do know that there are literally a thousand other jobs that a transwoman clothes assistant at M&S could do, other than be a bra fitter for them.

ijustwannadance · 19/04/2018 23:08

Yes, no issue saying thanks but no thanks.

I think what people are unsure of is that if a trans woman came to do a fitting, would they be able to say, "I would rather a biological woman do my fitting please" without being branded a transphobe?

If the law is changed to allow men to legally be women would that not be seen as discrimination? In all situations, not just this particular example.

Pratchet · 19/04/2018 23:44

Don't you think everyone deserves, if nothing else, dignified access to appropriate underwear for their bodies? Doesn't something like that count as 'basic human dignity?

  1. You don't care about the basic human dignity of women
  2. Sure get the underwear, try it on in the men's
Pratchet · 19/04/2018 23:45

Frankly I don't think bra fitters should have to deal with male breasts.

R0wantrees · 19/04/2018 23:51

Primark are currently being challenged for asking a trans woman for id before going into the female changing rooms. It would seem that she had some, so could of course use them.
Primark are being challenged for the the discrimination / distress caused to the trans woman...
it is significant as Primark were found guilty of gender discrimination against an employee in December.
Pink News article [[https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/04/18/primark-investigating-after-trans-woman-refused-entry-to-womens-changing-room/}}

thebewilderness · 20/04/2018 03:05

It seems odd but they seem to be trying to create a class of males who must be obeyed unquestioningly.

SusanBunch · 20/04/2018 05:25

ijustwannadance the law has already allowed men to become women for 14 years and discrimination against them has been specifically outlawed since 2010.

Hopefully you wouldn’t phrase it like that when politely declining and seeing as we are talking about one person who may or may not even exist I don’t think this will be something women have to encounter on a regular basis.

Pratchet · 20/04/2018 07:00

'Discrimination' as in, you can't sack them for being trans etc.

'Discrimination' around whether they have to be allowed in my daughter's bra fitting space is not allowed for in the Equality Act.

Whether or not a particular person exists is no reason for you to abandon the principle of sex segregated space on behalf of the rest of us. That's rather arrogant.

Pratchet · 20/04/2018 07:03

It's not 'not allowed for in the EA'. It is allowed for. I'm correcting myself.

Somebody wrote earlier: why on earth do people like you find the idea of sex segregated space so objectionable, even contemptible. I'd like to know the answer too.

GeTERFuck · 20/04/2018 07:14

Is there a petition or anything ?

Swipe left for the next trending thread