Spartacus believes in biology.

[HairyBallTheorem]

Transwomen are biologically male. They are born biologically male and they remain biologically male.

I accept that it must be very hard to suffer from gender dysphoria. I wish transwomen well. I support their right not to be discriminated against in housing, employment and in life in general.

But biology matters. It is biology which means that women in Ireland and across South America and in many other parts of the world are the ones who get pregnant and are then forced to give birth against their will by political systems that deny them the right to abortion. It is biology which enables people in cultures which practice FGM to recognise which babies are female and thus decide which ones' genitals need slicing off with rusty razor blades. It is biology which dictates which foetuses are aborted simply for being female, which infants are allowed to die simply for being female. It is biology which means we are, on average, smaller and less physically strong than men and thus at higher risk of domestic violence up to and including murder (2 a week in this country, into the hundreds in Russia which has recently legalised domestic violence).

I am not prepared to lie about biology. Facts matter. The intersection of facts and political beliefs matters.

This is a hill on which I'm prepared to be banned from Mumsnet.

I am Spartacus and I am a cunt. There surely has to be a multi million pound t shirt deal in that slogan. The profits we can donate to MN so they no longer need to rely on advertisers.
I think amongst the discussion on this thread, it is worth noting how far MN and in particular Justine personally have stuck their necks out for us. No politician, no public figure, not even a party specifically for women, have done this. Let's face it many of us have spoken about our reluctance to speak publicly about our views. Justine does not have that luxury. I agree the debate about language is important, vital even, but fucking hell, we also need to acknowledge the importance of the stand they have made.
Actually I sound like a bit of a crawly cunt now

I am Spartacus. Still.

I am not cis.

I am Spartacus.

For all those who are wondering what Spartacus is. It's standing up and saying biology matters.

It's what defines us. Whether we want it to or not.

Others are telling us that we are 'reducing things to biology'.

But our biology is the sole thing that makes us women.

There are people who are telling us that it isn't. There are people telling us that you, as a woman, is nothing but a feeling.

They are telling us that is a 'feeling' that makes you a woman. And then demanding access to your spaces, your places, because they 'feel' the same.

They are telling us that females have a penis.

They are telling us we are wrong in our gut reactions to male (penis) presences in our spaces.

This is abuse.

This is wrong.

I am Spartacus.

Can I be Spartacus and Spartacunt?

Or is that greedy?

Yep, I am Spartacus.

Still Spartacus.

I'm Spartacus too.

Biology matters.

I am Spartacus. Biology and science matter. And so do words.

MNHQ said during the first Spartacus revolt that they would never ban anyone or delete posts for stating facts.

Like others, I was delighted to see Justine weighing in on free speech.

Another woman who is Spartacus. Biology matters, women and girls matter. For males to try and redefine us, to silence us - should make females everywhere bloody angry.

I am Spartacus. I believe in biology - I do not believe that a penis is a female organ.

I believe that there are hard-won rights and protections for women, and that it is possible to make sure that trans men and trans women are safe and free from abuse WITHOUT trampling over women’s protections and rights.

I believe that I am a woman, not a cis-woman - I will happily use a trans person’s preferred pronoun but I will not accept less from them or anyone else.

I believe that the needs of a rape or domestic abuse victim matter more than the potential hurt feelings of a trans individual who is to,d they cannot work in a rape crisis centre or women’s aid shelter. The same applies to a woman who is not happy to have an obviously male bodied trans woman do her smear - her need to get a potentially life saving test matters more than their hurt feelings.

I believe that female athletes - female athletes who were born female, grew up female and are still female - should not have to compete against athletes who were born male, grew up with all the physical athletic/muscular/pulmonary benefits of being male, but who have now transitioned. It is simply not fair.

I believe that children (and adults) should be able to like particular colours or hobbies or subjects, or to aspire to a particular career, or to wear make up or dresses or trousers or sparkly things, or to like sports or cooking or crafts, without being shoved into an incredibly reductive and restrictive box, labelled boy or girl. I do not think that, having been shoved into a particular box they should then be given powerful drugs with irreversible effects.

I am Spartacus.

I identify with women, not as one.

My genitals were male, any penis can be nothing other than male.

Any man who believes women should ignore their own self order action instincts or worries, just to pander to his delusions or sexual fetishes should never be allowed in any strictly female space.

Children do not need to find thief gender in a ‘spectrum’ depending on what toys they play with, or activities they like. Gender stereotypes should be broken down (seemed like they were being torn down gradually before this decade happened) not reinforced into young, impressionable children’s minds.

Describing any persons sexual preferences as ‘phobic’ is batshit. (That seems to be particularly aimed at lesbians)

I am Spartacus.

I am not cis.

My son can play with pink My Little Ponies and wear a skirt of he wants. My daughter may want to play with Transformers, as I did when I was a girl. It's all fine...gender 'norms' are a pile of crap. My kids are male and female. They don't need to pretend anything else to conform to some outdated stereotypes.

Any man who believes women should ignore their own self order action instincts or worries, just to pander to his delusions or sexual fetishes should never be allowed in any strictly female spa

♥️

Thing is, Justine, the wolves are after you now. You've been incredibly brave and we are proud of you and MN, but you can't appease the haters by stopping MNetters from saying that trans -identified men are men.

Stopping us from stating biological reality won't appease them, it will encourage them. For trans extremists, the whole point is to violate women's boundaries and exert control over us, down to the language they allow us. Forcing women to pretend to believe something that we know is not only a lie, but a lie that undermines our very identity, is the ultimate in coercion. Please don't allow MN to be complicit in controlling and coercing its users.

So, of course, MN should delete comments that contain personal abuse, but it is not abusive to say that a man is man, any more than it was abusive to say that Rachel Dolezal is white.

Oh and, by the way, I am Spartacus, and I think you are too

I was Spartacus the first time round, still Spartacus now.

I learnt today that peanut flowers have both male and female components (and thus self-fertilise). Guess what - humans aren't peanut flowers, we are male or we are female.

Without being able to talk about what individuals say, and disagree with it, we can't refute anything!

This strikes me as the fundamental issue. We can't just not discuss specific individuals who're in the news a lot when their views are getting airtime and having an impact on how this whole situation plays out. Given how many people are on these forums, you're going to get multiple comments pointing the same issues out and discussing previous comments. That's not a calculated pile-on, it's just how forums work. I don't see how that can be avoided without making discussion of public figures off limits, which would be a bad idea for the reasons above.

The comment that I got deleted in the IW thread was deleted because I mentioned finding it disturbing to see a younger male person shouting at and physically intimidating an older female person* . Take the "male versus female" part out of that and you've removed both the systemic analysis of what's happening in that situation and the ability of women to point out that it's happening and discuss the implications. If we make that concession then how can we discuss this issue productively at all?

*(Which the mod said could be interpreted as calling IW a man, which would be a problem and could come across as a personal attack, which was particularly vexing after I'd very deliberately avoided the word "man".)

Avoiding the word "man" as a compromise is one thing - wouldn't be my preference, but there are ways to work around it and still make your point. Avoiding the word male is a much bigger problem.

I'm Spartacus. The word woman has a meaning. If some men reject the male stereotype and want to live in a feminine way and have genital m to f surgery then I am happy to have them in female spaces and call them she but they will still be male. You can never become the opposite sex you just look like a stereotyped version of them.
We should be fighting sexual stereotypes so masculine women and feminine men don't feel the need to say they are a different gender.

Just catching up. I completely understand MN's stance regarding being careful, they must be dealing with a major pounding right now, and of course Justine is out there front and centre in RL. TRAs have shown themselves to be violent, and being a target must be terrifying. I admire her courage immensely

However, I also agree that limiting what women say will not appease them. My 15yr old DD is incensed at the idea of appeasement, she says in her studies of history it has never worked (I sincerely hope she retains this stance), she also is Spartacus.

Every time we think we have a handle on the language, it is changed and we are called phobic for not using the correct wording. Think trans*, trans, transgendered, transwoman, trans woman, and now woman. However if you say woman you may still be yelled at for not adding trans women, as the TRAs need to be sure that you mean trans woman when you say woman, but don't call them trans women because they were always woman. And you must also refer to yourself as cis, so that they know that you know that woman means trans women, but don't say trans woman as they are women.

Damnation, it does my head in and it's deliberate to always keep us in the position of being wrong and bigots.

I too fully support the rights of transsexuals to live their lives in safety and with the equal rights of all in society, but not at the expense of women's right. Again, in a sane world both groups should be able to have the separate rights each requires.

Is there and on the hill? Can no longer have either in RL, so damn well having it if I'm dying on said hill. No for DD though.

Sorry that was long and rambling. It's late and I prob shouldn't be tired/frustrated posting.

Hope it makes some kind of sense to other tired/frustrated posters

I am Spartacus

I understand that individuals suffer turmoil about their identity in many different ways. I support their efforts to help themselves feel comfortable.

But I also wish that gender stereotypes were not so strong as to make boys and girls feel they weren't good enough at being boys or girls. And I wish that homosexuality were more accepted by certain groups.

Women should not have to move over for men. We are sick of that.

I am not a woman because I feel like one. I just am one.

P.S. Tony Curtis was my first crush

I am not a women because I don't feel like one

Oh hang on ......... I am because I grew and birthed 3 kids with my biology

No, it's about singling people out personally and the effects of the volume of posts about an individual.

So I can criticise the Prime minister, that's OK but the moment I say Theresa May that's personal attack?

Sometimes you do need to talk about someone by name or bring up their deadname, not to attack but to be clear.

At the moment there is news about the Windrush generation, and some of it focuses on Theresa May as she is the current PM and was the minister who took the safety net away from them. The name here clarifies the story in a way using just the titles wouldn't.

P.S. Tony Curtis was my first crush

Mine too.

I am Spartacus, for all the reasons so eloquently stated on this thread.

I am Spartacus.
Biology matters.