Mumsnet gets a mention in the Times

[LadyGrey18]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-activists-think-debate-is-hate-speech-hsh7vpmzt

Hopefully someone will come along with a share token soon but the relevant section is:

Mumsnet is a rare forum where feminist anxiety about trans ideology is allowed to be aired. The website takes no position, it merely upholds free speech. However, activists are now threatening Mumsnet advertisers, telling them to stop “funding bigotry” or face a Twitter storm and possible boycott. They hope that, fearful of losing revenue, Mumsnet will delete and ban the debates.

The article also states that the Crown Prosecution Service have decided not to prosecute Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull (presumably because she didn't actually do anything illegal).

We need to take a leaf from the TRA's book... "When terfs attack, we fight back". If advertisers on MN are targetted, we need to wield our own buying power. There are a lot more women than TRAs in the world.

Great that petition is linked

Excellent point Juells

Was reading through threads on Twitter and lancashire police have an officer going to a mermaid organised meeting too which is interesting.

Great article, brave writing (though it shouldn't need to be!) and sets out the facts very clearly.

What is Posie going to do with the crowd fund?

That was a good article.

And the comments are also great.

What is Posie going to do with the crowd fund?

The most recent update on her crowdfunder says:

if the funds are not required for legal fees, as yet undecided, they will be gifted to an organisation interested in free speech/transing children and the dangers of/a new charity or project

I would rather the money raised be donated to fund other legal challenges personally. Or even to James Caspian's crowdfunder. Anyone know Posie who could suggest this?

I would also prefer for the money raised to go to the James Caspian's Crowdfunder.

Juells: yes - I hope we are told if any advertisers pull out and which ones. Already boycotting Top Shop, Primark and Lush. Will actively support those who stay. We aren't short of choice for where to shop.

Good for Janice Turner.

And I will join the boycott of Lush - never shop at TopShop or Primark anyway.

Thank you Janice. I was beginning to despair that all the good things that have come out of this week were being swamped by a tide of behind the scenes bullying, and the Michael Cashman slurs.

If the Mercure, Mumsnet, HoC and others have been swamped by the multi-threats to 'expose' them and lose their funding, then I expect Janice Turner and the Times are also.

So thank you so much to them for giving me some hope.

Another great article from Janice.

Yes, I’d also like to know which, if any, advertisers pull out so that I can boycott them too. The purpose of Mumsnet is to support women, so it is in our interest to let us know which companies prefer to support misogyny instead.

I made a small donation (despite Posie being one of the rudest people I have encountered online)

James Campion seems a good choice.

Exposing the ways that advertisers/ organisations/ individuals /political parties etc are lobbied is much more important... as then this may be countered.

The example that JT gives in the article is interesting:
"How does this happen? This is a complex debate but on the phone to meek receptionists and scared middle managers, trans activists keep it simple. They say: “These evil women are social conservatives who hate trans people. They’re like Tory bigots who brought in Section 28 and hated gays. They want to eradicate trans women; they incite violence against them. They deny their humanity and want them dead. Do you want your company to be part of that?”

I am very confident that the vast majority of women here and at WPUK meetings are significantly less likely than most to be any of these things... & know that some of the claims are absolutely untrue.

Surely better to debunk the propaganda used as leverage than focus blame on those who were manipulated?

Janice is an amazing women. It takes guts to stand up on this issue, when so much abuse follows. I have become as worried at the crushing of opinion, as I am about the problems of identity politics.

We have to remember that women are over half the population. That gives us power. Most of the advertisers here sell products to women and parents. We are their target market. I would hope that even when users of this site disagree on issues, they respect and accept debate and discussion.

Agree Sir Vix

Looking at some of the comments on the article it bothers me a bit that it's always framed as feminists vs...I feel it sometimes allows people (men and women) to dismiss this issue as something fringe when in reality the loss of biological sex as a meaningful and legal category will eventually impact on everyone.

'Women want reasoned discussion' would be a better tagline because I expect few women who attend these meetings or have concerns are seasoned career activists like Linda Bellos, for example.

If I have an opportunity to attend a WPUK meeting it will be the first time in 25 years of adulthood I've met with other women IRL to discuss women's rights and I'll be heading there probably following a day filled with laundry, doing the school run and making sure the kids are fed. Hardly a hot bed of bra burning activism!

I'm fairly sure I'm far from the only woman who has ended up on FWR chat or at a WPUK meeting because this issue has really opened her eyes and engaged her brain.

HAve been thinking the same thing Ova and also wondering if, in part, this is because the word 'woman' is so contested....

Perhaps so R0wan I think it also falls into the discussion around thinking of oneself as feminist vs holding views that are feminist. Many women I think are the latter without being the former.

I would call myself a feminist now but a few years back I might not have done despite my views on most things not really having changed.

Good article. I note she is careful not to use gender pronouns for TW, a practice that can usefully be followed by anyone who wishes to neither appease nor inflame.

OTOH the TRA sympathisers I've come across start with the unshakeable premise that transwomen are women and that some women have a penis and are attracted to women, so even discussing the possibility of discussion is akin to discussing whether the Holocaust happened.

If I'm honest, it's the Cult of the Penis that I object to when it invades women's spaces. And invades the definition of ‘woman’, come to that.

Even there debate is starting to be closed down. In the last few days, Mumsnet has altered the algorithm on its forum to make the Feminism section less visible to users, to "take the heat out of the [trans debate] situation.

Ah! That explains why, after a couple of days away, I had to manually search for this board, as it isn't in the usual Active, Last 15 Minutes lists!

It's sad, but maybe a small enough price to pay...

I wonder how many casual readers of the article are aware of how wide Stonewall's definition of trans is. I wasn't before I accidentally stumbled in here.