Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

@KateMumsnet

I get you - the tone of debate from 'our' side does make me wince on ocaision.

I would much, much rather that you banned individual (GC) posters than stopped us talking. Come on, you know how important this is. We can't control each other, we can only ask nicely.

But you have the ban hammer.

Great post mouss.

I do agree kate. And yes, I don't feel like I've seen many posts deleted on threads recently. It's perfectly possible.

What reluctant and zerf said

I'll put my hand up and say I've been getting shorter on patience, to post to show annoyance rather than contribute and more ready to retaliate, simply because after a while of seeing the patterns and repetitions of nonsense it gets harder to patiently explain, yet again, instead of call it out.

I understand that has to stop. and yes, like the rest of this mess, it's extremely unfair and limiting, but it's a sacrifice worth making.

A while ago though I do remember posters reminding each other and keeping each other in check. I missed the threads on Spartacus but picked up from lurking later on what had happened and also how posters were making efforts to keep allowing debate - by rising above.

This topic has exploded over the last few months. As said below, remember the lurkers.

The thought that this space could be taken away is terrifying to me.

I will certainly do everything I can to stay respectful and within the talk guidelines, though I know I’ve been deleted in the past for letting my frustrations get the best of me.

I do think it is a fine tightrope. On the one hand we should be ‘better’ than the TRA’s, on the other, I don’t want posters to start getting deleted for ‘misgendering’ if they aren’t being antagonistic and are just stating facts.

Yes, must remember the lurkers. But you know, women are angry, and that anger is righteous. Our safety and that of our daughters is at stake, and that makes me very angry indeed. Can we not express that at all do you think ? And if so why not ?

Yes agree truscum.

Also, having been unfortunate enough to witness TRA tactics on other sites I really wouldn’t put it past a few of the more unstable to deliberately post deliberately goady GC thread should to try to take this space from us.

However those should be easy enough to spot, as they haven’t even tried to understand gc feminists intentions so will look ‘off’.

If enough of us report them quickly enough when they pop up then hopefully HQ will understand it’s nothing to do with us and it won’t count against anyone here.

Or post the acronym and then proceed to give the lurkers a proper mumsnet show.

Should we maybe pin this post then?

Like the 'listen up' thread at the top of the Relationships board?

Good thinking Certain

I've expressed a great deal of anger without being deleted. Play the ball not the individual(s)

do think it is a fine tightrope. On the one hand we should be ‘better’ than the TRA’s, on the other, I don’t want posters to start getting deleted for ‘misgendering’ if they aren’t being antagonistic and are just stating facts.

Absolutely agree Truscum.

If enough of us report them quickly enough when they pop up then hopefully HQ will understand it’s nothing to do with us and it won’t count against anyone here.

Or post the acronym and then proceed to give the lurkers a proper mumsnet show.

I think this is the best approach. Report plus acronym.

Ach. The truth is, we're just not going to be able to describe the 'line' beyond which we'd consider a non-gender-critical poster to be goady - and tbh, the fact that you're focusing on that aspect of things makes us a bit worried that you've still not really understood the problem.

It's not my focus, I'd just appreciate a bit of guidance here. I think I have understood the problem and if you read the rest of what I have posted I think you will see that.

Never mind. I'll continue to do my best. There are lots of good suggestions on this thread.

I completely support people's right to be offended at the awful behaviour of some TRAs, especially in the context of women regularly being expected to sublimate their righteous anger; but name calling and aggression weakens the argument being made.

If people actually want to defeat self ID, restore all women shortlists and protect single sex spaces then we have to bring along a lot of people who are new to this issue and don't understand the anger, they will read it as transphobia.

makes us a bit worried that you've still not really understood the problem. The bottom line is that we can't continue to host the debate if the tone is as antagonistic as it has been

This scares me. I think, sadly, that we all need to start challenging those of us who cross the line.

I would much, much rather that you banned individual (GC) posters than stopped us talking.

This!!!

But it is very time consuming to ask MNHQ to start warning and banning individuals. We can, and should, police ourselves. Might I tentatively suggest some lines, and ask what people think?

1. No name calling.
2. No gratuitously unpleasant comments about famous individuals.
3. No telling other MNers (yes even the wind up merchants) to 'bugger off' etc.
4. Care to differentiate that we are not talking about whole groups (yeah I know...NAMALT).
5. No direct troll hunting- the ways of suggesting caution proposed above will serve fine.
6. No 'misgendering' of individuals? I'm torn on this one, but MNHQ are asking and I think we can make the point without directly commenting on individuals.

Also, having been unfortunate enough to witness TRA tactics on other sites I really wouldn’t put it past a few of the more unstable to deliberately post deliberately goady GC thread should to try to take this space from us.

I have long suspected that there are one or two posters in particular (even before the trans thing got going) who do some kind of weird impersonation of what the DM think a feminist is and just go on random threads winding people up. By reporting and challenging the egregious posts we can do a lot to minimise harm.

Sorry, that became an essay

Have HQ said we must use preferred pronouns then ?

I hear you there truscum

There have been so many articles in the mainstream media the past couple of weeks referring people to these boards it would only be a matter of time before the TRAs started seeing us as not just a minor inconvenience.

Don’t feed them, keep it respectful and factual. You’re not going to make a sea lion keep their mouth shut, so we’re as well keeping to the facts and letting logic do it’s work.

#TGLWGH

Have HQ said we must use preferred pronouns then?

You can see for yourself that they don't want to give specific talk guidelines because they can be used by barrack room lawyers and because they don't want to dictate how people should speak.

Not making a point of misgendering sexing individuals who have asked people to use a different pronoun would make it harder for allegations of transphobia to stick.

Good post @donquixotedelamancha. I agree with your suggestions.

And also have been thinking for some time that there are a few agents provocateur on these threads.

Thanks don. Will sidestep from now on then. Have strong feelings re pronouns issue, but I will be careful.

I agree with the no misgendering.
We have to take the moral high ground here.
Calling any transwoman him/he or calling certain high profile trans women by nicknames is rude and makes us look bad.

@BoreOfWhabylon @SirVixofVixHall

Thank you both. Writing that made me very uncomfortable. It took me a long time of lurking before I started referring to the campaign against self ID as we and us. The last thing I want to do is start telling people who've worked their arses off on this how to talk.

Some great ideas here. Thanks to MNHQ for helping us think this through