Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

Just to add, I'm not sure that not engaging is helpful.

It gives the impression that we don't actually have the facts/points/evidence to back up a GC position.

Agree. And agree we have to be careful and measured in how we do it.

Okay. I won’t biscuit again. Next time I will do as Bore said and report. That didn’t actually cross my mind. Thanks for the response.

And a message as Darth suggests. Quick moving thread!

I agree. As soon as it went to twitter it felt uncomfortable. I don't think I used the right words to say what I felt; suggestions here are really good.

DarthArts's ideas are good, and I'm sure have been used before.

I find it helps if you think of yourself as replying 'to' the lurkers rather than to the disengenuous poster

I agree.

And addressing the view point, with respect to the poster, separating the two so it becomes less personal and more about theory,

I'm a little concerned that the post from MNHQ will be seen as a possible way to shut down discussion here. We know that there's plenty of ranting on twitter about mumsnet allowing gender critical feminists to talk and it worries me that they'll see this as an opportunity to come and goad until someone reacts badly in an effort to get hr topic banned.

It seems to be holding us to a higher standard that the goady fuckers

Or rather

And addressing the view point, while respecting the poster

It seems to be holding us to a higher standard that the goady fuckers

I'll take that challenge; it'll just show them up.

I suppose my point is that everyone who posts will be affected by those breaking the Talk guidelines not just the individual posters...

It *seems to be holding us to a higher standard that the goady fuckers

I'll take that challenge; it'll just show them up.*

I agree. They go low, we go high. Let them be seen for what they are. We have reason on our side.

OK, and possibly this is moving into paranoia but if people join to post inflammatory stuff while purporting to be gender critical then that's a good way to get debate shut down.

Good post.

My concern with the idea of not responding to goady posts is that they often contain a lot of misinformation which, if not challenged, is left to stand.

I like your idea DarthArts and the general advice to post for the lurkers. Also, there are lots of incredibly reasonable, knowledgeable posters here. We can each of us decide to step back and pass the baton to others when we're getting wound up.

Just report as '?TRA goader'. It's what I used to do with the MRA tools.

Would they be taken down? Where are the lines here? I understand that for some, 'trans women are women' is a genuine belief and may not be posted with goady intent. OTOH, I don't think a post saying that MN has been infiltrated by a tiny group of shadowy evil right wing transphobes should be left to stand, on reflection.

We are going to get a lot more of this. TRAs are rattled by the success of WPUK and ManFriday and their failure to stop women from meeting and discussing despite their concerted efforts. They are dialing the provocation up to 11. Twitter is now awash with screenshots of MN from accounts calling us a 'hate site' (they also call WPUK a 'hate group' so nothing should be read into that). At the same time, the number of women waking up to what's going on is increasing exponentially and it can take people a while to get past the initial stage of raw outrage to a point where they can discuss reasonably.

So the combination of all those things have added to the heat of the debate recently. I was particularly disappointed with some of the responses on Stephen Whittle's thread. This is a person who was instrumental in the drafting of both the GRA and the EA and I thought that thread was a wasted opportunity to ask some proper serious questions.

This is a good reminder to rise above it and show why MN is an excellent place to have this debate - no block button, open to all, well informed intelligent posters, sensible moderation.

Thanks once again MNHQ

I suppose my point is that everyone who posts will be affected by those breaking the Talk guidelines not just the individual posters...

Yes I agree. I do think we're being held to a higher standard, as women always, always are.

FlaviaAlbia yes I've seen a couple of instances where I suspected that.

I don't think a post saying that MN has been infiltrated by a tiny group of shadowy evil right wing transphobes should be left to stand, on reflection.

Agree.

Just wanted to agree with others on the thread to say that I appreciate what MNHQ are doing with open debate

Im more of a 'don't post' poster

But i lurk a lot!

I like the they go low, we go high as a mantra to try to keep ones cool, and a reminder that losing that cool can end up biting us on the arse.

There were some really good posts on the T thread (which I skim read but didn't post on) and it is a shame to lose some of those really well reasoned arguments when threads get deleted.

Just report as 'TRA goader'. It's what I used to do with the MRA tools.

Do many people report goading TRA posts (similar to those recently)?

I ask because I never report anything - bee in bonnet about free speech even if I hate what's being said/extremely thick skinned so don't care if someone is abusive to me personally.

But if that's how the site's moderation, which is reactive as I understand it, achieves a fair balance of removing posts that take both sides of any particular argument too far, I'll try to reconsider and start doing it.

Thanks @KateMumsnet

The reason for suggesting a "self policing" post, is that we see these posts before MNHQ.

Even if you report it (which is a valid response) a quick moving thread can have 100's of posts on in before MNHQ can get to it.

They then have a big "mop up" operation to deal with, whilst in the meantime the provocative poster, has taken loads of screen shots and put them on social media.

The fact that MNHQ subsequently deleted any posts that breached guidelines is totally lost "out there".

That obviously puts pressure on MN and is like handing bullets for the gun of TRA's.

We do need to be able to talk out this - women are being silenced, but also we need to be mindful that we have a responsibility when we do so to enable MN to have a defensible position against detractors.

I don't think a post saying that MN has been infiltrated by a tiny group of shadowy evil right wing transphobes should be left to stand, on reflection.

Neither do I. And now I wish I had got off my own self-regarding free speech pedestal and reported the thread (particularly once it had been advertised as deliberately goady elsewhere) rather than get cross on the thread to a level that got a post of mine deleted.

I ask because I never report anything - bee in bonnet about free speech even if I hate what's being said/extremely thick skinned so don't care if someone is abusive to me personally.

I'm exactly the same. I once got called out by a TRA on twitter who thought I'd contributed to his banning. I hadn't because I generally don't report because I value free speech. But yes, maybe I need to do it more.

I do think we're being held to a higher standard, as women always, always are

This is certainly true and annoying. But it's also the reason why we are convincing people.

I know there's concern about people using our socialisation to silence us and to make us complicit in our silencing. But being courteous is different from being 'nice', especially when we're courteously and persistently disrupting oppressive ideologies.

I always try and keep in mind the phrases 'Don't feed the Troll' and 'We don't reward bad behaviour with attention'. It works nearly all the time.

Yes :)

They go low, we go high. Let them be seen for what they are. We have reason on our side.

Yep.

It’s hard not to be impassioned (I’m one to talk) but it’s better to be methodical, to the point and let them make a show of themselves in their response. I read about 20 pages of that post and whilst I respect the OP for staying around, they simply were not listening nor were they taking anything onboard. They were constantly asking for evidence and when supplied with it they never replied or disgregarded it and shouted “but I am a woman” - they show themselves up time and again. Let them get on with it.

The “I’m a transwoman who can never get pregnant and want to reach out to infertile ciswomen” was evidence to me that they a.) were trolling b.) it was a deliberate attempt to get people to kick up a stink c.) they are oblivious to women.

Let them show how little they care about women even though they insist they are the same. Let them hang themselves and their misogyny, their homophobia and their bigotry out to dry - they do it very well on their own.

When they strike, before you hit that post button, step away for a second, imagine giving yourself the Mumsnet haircut, breathe and then decide if you still want to post in your entirety. Your Cadfel moment, if you will.

Just report as '?TRA goader'. It's what I used to do with the MRA tools.

Would they be taken down?

Sometimes, depends on the content. At least it gives MNHQ a heads up and they can also check poster history, name-changes etc.