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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

835 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/04/2018 17:37

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
boatyardblues · 07/04/2018 19:24

I like the Michelle Obama “they go low, we go high” is great & should be part of the ‘stop’ post. The linking from Twitter is, in all likelihood, driving gender agnostic folk this way to see what all the fuss is about. Lots of calm, on point, evidenced posts undermine the shrieky “feminist TERFy harpies!” narrative. More of that will help to take more of the questioning people with us.

CircleSquareCircleSquare · 07/04/2018 19:25

Even if we just literally post
“TGLWGH”

Weezol · 07/04/2018 19:27

I'm up for TGLWGH.

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 19:27

Great post Circle. You're right.

Freshlylaidterf · 07/04/2018 19:28

Agreed

GoodyMog · 07/04/2018 19:31

I hate that we do get held to higher standards, but regardless, I'm on board with TGLWGH

hazeyjane · 07/04/2018 19:35

I was just going to post that they go low, we go high could be a Spartacus like 'cunt to 10' thing to post. But TGLWGH is much better!

DarthArts · 07/04/2018 19:39

Yes - totally on board with TGLWGH :-)

athingthateveryoneneeds · 07/04/2018 19:42

#TGLWGH . Definitely.

Whilst I understand the exasperation in the idea that women always have to take the moral high ground just in order to get a semblance of an equal footing in the debate, we aren't going to convince the TRAs and we aren't trying to - we are here to sharpen our own debate skills, communicate with one another and bring more (and more..and more...) lurkers on side.

I feel there has been a huge snowball affect recently, and there have been quite a few trans threads started by women new to this self ID issue - confused, shocked, appalled, self doubting. It's important to keep these people in mind.

Thanksforthatamazingpost · 07/04/2018 20:41

“It's frustrating when people are spending time and energy on patient explanations to which the OP has no intention at all of giving considered thought. And whatever is said here, however clear and polite and robust the argument, it gets called 'abuse' and is described as 'hysterical' and bullying etc

I find it helps if you think of yourself as replying 'to' the lurkers rather than to the disengenuous poster”

Agree. I very much appreciate being able to read courteous explanations/answers. I know I’m reading for the first time something that has been commented on many times before.....

thebewilderness · 07/04/2018 20:52

Speaking only for myself I am convinced that we should always hold ourselves to a higher standard of behavior than we hold others in order to avoid misunderstandings.

RedToothBrush · 07/04/2018 20:56

I give it six weeks tops til it gets closed down then.

Fine for people who can walk away. Not so fine for those of us who can't.

We are headed for a very bad place.

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 20:58

Agree Red.

thebewilderness · 07/04/2018 21:00

I also think it is a good idea to announce reporting a goady post so those who read it can stop a mo to consider if they want to take the bait.

ReluctantCamper · 07/04/2018 21:25

The only posts I have reported have been ones that are or could be considered transphobic, after confidently asserting on a thread that there is no transphobia here and then being roundly proved wrong.

We have such good arguments on our side, there is no need for insults.

I haven't been on the T thread today, sounds like it went a bit sideways. But the first half was good. If a TRA wants to come onto a parenting website and say he wants to reach out to infertile women because they share the same experience, let him. It's all grist to our mill.

TGLWGH

Ereshkigal · 07/04/2018 21:29

I think if we are obviously going to be held to a higher standard than goady people who post with an agenda, then i suggest we report with something like this:

TGLWGH. Reported.

ZERF · 07/04/2018 21:35

Agree.

PencilsInSpace · 07/04/2018 21:53

I think if we are obviously going to be held to a higher standard than goady people who post with an agenda, then i suggest we report with something like this:

TGLWGH. Reported.

Yes.

I'd like some sort of guidance from @MNHQ for where the goadiness line is for deletion on these posts. I'd only announce I was reporting on the thread if I knew there was a good chance it would be deleted.

Kneedeepinunicorns · 07/04/2018 22:00

#TGLWGH Reported.

Yes. I'm in.

loveyouradvice · 07/04/2018 22:00

Hi guys.... totally agree ... they go low, we go high

And I'd suggest we post it in full at regular intervals - tglwgh will pass non-regular posters by! Although it may catch on..... And I suspect the regulars will be better at self-policing....

Great we can all stay rational and reasonable.....

SciFiFan2015 · 07/04/2018 22:06

Thanks for this. I'm a lurker in this area and massively in love with the feminism boards, the GC stuff and the freedom of speech.

I love #TGLWGH

The op@womanformallyknownaswoman mentioned some other tips and tricks - could you PM me them please? No point sharing for all to see.

Thanks everyone and thanks @MNHQ

ZERF · 07/04/2018 22:11

It is difficult as certainly the op of the thread in question was polite and certainly didn't cry bigot or too much cis (only 1?) and it did feel at first like there was decent discussion and debate where they could keep up, though I know certain questions put to them were avoided.

At what point do we report? TGLWGH on its own could also work as a reminder to rein in any heated feelings? Or just reminders?

ZERF · 07/04/2018 22:12

Sorry I'm being dumb. Yes just use regularly and if reported.

Moussemoose · 07/04/2018 22:15

This week marks the anniversary of the death of Dr .Martin Luther King Jr. the civil rights movement in the US in the late 1950s and early 1960s was defined by they go lower we go higher.

Think about those pictures of brave, calm black faces being abused. The white faces twisted with hatred and rage spitting and hurling abuse.

Just because 'they' behave worse is not an excuse to sink to their level. We are on the internet. Nobody is being spat at, hurt, abused. No dogs are being turned on us.

Calmly refuting arguments and taking the moral^ high ground does^ work. We absolutely hold ourselves to higher standards and we do so with pride.

MNHQ
KateMumsnet · 07/04/2018 22:15

Hi again all

Ach. The truth is, we're just not going to be able to describe the 'line' beyond which we'd consider a non-gender-critical poster to be goady - and tbh, the fact that you're focusing on that aspect of things makes us a bit worried that you've still not really understood the problem.

The bottom line is that we can't continue to host the debate if the tone is as antagonistic as it has been - it just confirms the prejudices of our critics and leaves us in an impossible position.

We think the acronym is brilliant and so is the idea of reminding one another not to rise - but there needs to be a general shift in the tone regardless of who else is on the threads, so that deletions are really, really rare. It is possible, because we see hundreds of extremely cogent expressions of a gender-critical position which don't go anywhere near crossing the line.