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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Dealing with inflammatory posts re Trans on MN

835 replies

womanformallyknownaswoman · 07/04/2018 17:37

I am concerned to see the message below from MNHQ at the end of the T thread. Regarding posts that I consider "goady", I have a personal policy of not feeding them, not engaging and not rising to the bait. I ignore them. OPs looking for conflict as a way to feed themselves won't get it from me. Firstly, it's exhausting-they are not interested in dialogue, despite what they say, and secondly the best way to deal with them, imo, is to starve them of attention and not rise to the bait. Don't give them what they want i.e. a fight and conflict.

My concern is I predict there will be a lot more new threads and OPs looking for a fight, as the public becomes more aware of the issues and the tide starts to turn against TRAs. They will want to try and get this Place closed down for discussion, and none of us want that to happen.

Personally I have found it empowering to learn how not to engage and to turn it back on them if absolutely necessary, by the use of ridicule and short rebuttals of their nonsense. I am happy to share some techniques if it will help plus learn more from others. There's no point in trying to score points and win all the arguments they make as it's the engagement down their rabbit holes they want - they literally feed off conflict. They're anti-social remember, so any attention is better than none. They want to keep you coming back and arguing, so they can derail, prolong, provoke and generally make life difficult for MNHQ - to force them to take action. The negative attention "turns on" those looking for a fight….so please don't feed them, ignore them and lets keep this place open.

Message for MN:

Hi all

Since this thread is getting near its end, this seems like a good moment to make a really serious point.

We've just made some more deletions on this thread, and we're pretty exasperated tbh - we feel we're running out of ways to say 'please stick within the TGs or risk losing MN as a place to discuss this issue.'

We're really proud of our commitment to free speech, and we put a huge amount of time and resources to enabling this debate to take place - as many of you have pointed out, it's one of the few places left.

To those who haven't yet been able to stop and look at things from our end of the barrel - please understand that you're risking this space for everyone; if you really can't debate civilly with those you disagree with, it might be time to consider that MN is no longer the place for you. We're sorry to have to say this - we don't like it one bit - but tbh nothing else seems to have got through so far: we're at a point of last resort.

Thanks to all those who modify their first instincts and manage to make their points in a calm, considered and civilised manner - even in the face of goadiness. We appreciate it (and so would Michelle.)

Thanks all

MNHQ

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
athingthateveryoneneeds · 08/04/2018 08:28

Surely MNHQ could lock threads rather than delete them if/when it becomes obvious that the op is goading / sea lioning / etc. That way we still have the useful responses and content saved but the thread can't degenerate into chaos and anger.

Mner · 08/04/2018 08:28

velour I was wondering that re only posters for who have registered for a while to post on the feminism posts to reduce the opportunity for angry reactionary GFs deliberately winding us up

rowdywoman1 · 08/04/2018 08:30

CismyArse posted this earlier and it resonated with me:

I've learnt so much from the FWR regulars here but it's taken 2 years of reading, re-reading and patient understanding, for me to reach a point where I can almost articulate myself without making a complete tool of myself. It's a complicated bit of mental gymnastics to navigate the enormity of these issues and I'd be fucking devastated to have this forum taken from us.
So, to myself more than anyone, but to us all, please continue to replicate the dignity and humility and patience that's brought so many of us to peak and beyond. We are an incredible bunch and we shall continue to make progress. Our way. Not their way

yetanothertranswoman · 08/04/2018 08:41

There were certainly some comments on that 'T' thread that were inflammatory and weren't challenged by anyone - although they were reported because they got deleted.

I have for the first time today seen someone challenge an inflammatory comment from another poster - even though they are both on the same side of the debate. I've never seen that before.

I know this discussion is really hard and the fact it's online just makes it easier to say things. I feel for MNHQ who have done a great job at keeping the discussion going.

Winewinewinegin · 08/04/2018 08:57

Thank you mumsnet for all you do.

I would be devastated if the debate about the huge impact of this area of law and culture on women could not be had here.

Please let us know if there is anything we can do to support you in keeping this space open.

I would be happy to donate towards additional moderation costs if needed.

MsBeaujangles · 08/04/2018 09:03

Rather than reducing the number of posts, perhaps we could move some of the debate on from being about trans people.

Attending to the demands of TRA has served to highlighted just how important single-sex services/spaces/provisions are to many of us. Now we have identified this we could, in some instances, stop centring trans people in the discussion.Our interests exist independently of TRAs. We can focus on what our interests are and what we need to do to protect them. For what it is worth, I think trans people would do well to focus their attentions in the same way.

In mediation, parties are encouraged to articulate their interests, rather than their positions/ideologies/beliefs/solutions etc. It might be a really constructive move for our cause if we begin to do this more.

TeamOrders · 08/04/2018 09:03

I didn't see the posts which were deleted but I assume there was a backlash to the OP's sustained goading. I would like to know @MNHQ whether the OP of the T thread is banned for coming onto MN, deliberately goading up a storm and taking screenshots of selected parts of the conversation to Twitter in order to further their own agenda of shutting down the debate.

BuggerBugger · 08/04/2018 09:05

I think on the whole this was totally foreseeable. Various posters have for quite a while been expressing concern at the tone of the debate. However, those voices have been jumped upon. Any suggestion that the place had a transphobic feel to it was met with 'produce quotes or it didn't happen'. The approach of attacking disagreement and labelling other views as TRAs or whatever adds to it. Consequently, fewer voices of dissent have been raised however just because they remain silent doesn't mean they agree with your stance

In reality the feel of the place to many is transphobic.

As a business I'm not sure I would want the reputation that this place has gained, and as an advertiser I sure as hell wouldn't put an advert here.

On a personal level, whilst I had concerns I've come to the feeling now, actually I don't know who is right and wrong and at times I don't actually care that much. I suspect I'm similar to many posters on MN and in the wider world.

yetanothertranswoman · 08/04/2018 09:07

I didn't see the posts which were deleted but I assume there was a backlash to the OP's sustained goading

The ones I saw had nothing to do with the OP but were people repeatedly using slurs against transwomen.

UpstartCrow · 08/04/2018 09:07

The problem MNHQ face is that few groups have this much protection in law. Women certainly don't.

And there's a new problem this morning, a poster has created an account with an inflammatory username, obviously in the hope of discrediting the site.
I'm not sure how MNHQ will deal with this, deleting the posts will leave the username visible.

yetanothertranswoman · 08/04/2018 09:13

I would like to know @MNHQ whether the OP of the T thread is banned for coming onto MN, deliberately goading up a storm and taking screenshots of selected parts of the conversation to Twitter in order to further their own agenda of shutting down the debate

Looking at the perspective of the OP, she would say she came on here as a transwoman to try and explain the position as she saw it and then had lots of people explain to her how it was wrong. She then put it on her feed which has very few followers in an attempt to rally support - but I shouldn't imagine many people saw it on her feed.

yetanothertranswoman · 08/04/2018 09:13

And there's a new problem this morning, a poster has created an account with an inflammatory username, obviously in the hope of discrediting the site

I noticed that as well.

Mner · 08/04/2018 09:15

MsBeaujangles I think that's a good idea. Use this energy to work towards changes that we need as a sex group. It's a shame WEP are still towing the TRA line at least publicly as this would have been a good opportunity to work together.

TeamOrders · 08/04/2018 09:15

The ones I saw had nothing to do with the OP but were people repeatedly using slurs against transwomen

But nevertheless were likely the result of that OPs continued offensive posting. The comment about 'reaching out to infertile cis women' was a real low point. Women are enraged, quite naturally.

RedToothBrush · 08/04/2018 09:17

There do seem to be numerous posts today which are not in line with what was being posted prior to yesterday.

I fear attempts will now be made to get MN closed down in this way.

FlaviaAlbia · 08/04/2018 09:17

I didn't post on the T thread because I read the OP and thought they were either sincere but bonkers or a troll and life is too short for that. If they've taken screenshot to twitter then I guess troll.

I've reported posts I've thought went too far in the past and I think I've only ever had two posts deleted since I started posting years ago so I'm not hoping for a free pass to fling insults. I just worry that now there's basically a blueprint to get discussion shut down here and it will be taken advantage of.

Mner · 08/04/2018 09:20

Maybe some of MN advertisers are threatening to pull the plug?

Floisme · 08/04/2018 09:24

I only started posting on here a few months ago after lurking for about 2 years and this will almost certainly be my longest to date. I've definitely noticed a change in recent weeks, possibly since Man Friday. It's a lot busier with a lot of new posters (I know some regulars name change but the voices are new) some of them in good faith and some clearly not. There's also a lot more sarcasm and a lot less patience.

Like many women, I came to this topic thinking 'what's the harm?' and fearful of being called a bigot (still am if I'm honest). What brought me round was the quality of the arguments plus the endless patience and good humour. I was struck by the way even goady posters were treated respectfully. If I were a new lurker now, I'm honestly not sure what I would think.

I'm not going to tell other new posters what to do but personally I am very conscious that this isn't AIBU where you can write any old crap and no-one's going to take a screen shot. There are a lot of people watching.

Up to a point, I think it's important to respond to goady posters but to engage with the argument, not with them personally. Some people are really good at this. I don't think biscuits help - it just looks like we don't have a coherent answer. I normally write my post then leave it for a few minutes and think about whether I'm really contributing anything. If I'm angry I often write something angry but then delete it.

And I have to say, the threads about Lily Madigan make me cringe. I know the history but the argument shouldn't be with Madigan but with the Labour Party. I no longer open them as I just can't bear it.

Kneedeepinunicorns · 08/04/2018 09:27

Kate was clear, it's antagonism that is the problem. It's obvious that HQ will be dealing with an inundation of complaints, accusations and demands for deletions, that's a well known tactic. It will take up a LOT of HQs time and energy. What Kate was saying is that when the tone of MNetter posts becomes antagonistic it gets hard for HQ to defend and stand up to the accusations and demands to stop allowing these conversations. It gets hard for them to say this is civil discussion and free speech, and to protect themselves.

I appreciate the flak HQ must endure on this, i appreciate they are willing to put in that work and take the hassle to protect free speech. I don't want to make it harder for them by using an antagonistic, angry tone. I don't need to, I can make my points calmly. If they're points and not giving way to rudeness.

UpstartCrow · 08/04/2018 09:28

Mner No, there are actual legal implications. Its what we've all been posting about for months.

Some things are becoming illegal to say, if they are said about a specific group, or biology. Even if its a scientific fact. Its already happened in in Canada. It can be a hate crime.

It has legal implications for the people that run this website.

Winewinewinegin · 08/04/2018 09:30

Rather than reducing the number of posts, perhaps we could move some of the debate on from being about trans people.

This is a great point. For example, discussing girl guides policies our interest is in ensuring girls aren't expected to share showers or sleeping areas with boys, especially secretly from parents.

Winewinewinegin · 08/04/2018 09:32

Some things are becoming illegal to say, if they are said about a specific group, or biology. Even if its a scientific fact. Its already happened in in Canada. It can be a hate crime.

Really, Upstart Crow? What are they or how do we find out what they are?

ReluctantCamper · 08/04/2018 09:34

Yes, I've stopped opening the Lily Madigan threads. I know she's hurt a lot of people but it just feels like bullying. I wish people would stop posting threads about her.

Apart from anything else, she's so obviously a GF, that the attention probably encourages her, and may well lead her to actions that could damage her life in the long run. I don't think any of us wish that for her.

Ereshkigal · 08/04/2018 09:35

I'm not sure how MNHQ will deal with this, deleting the posts will leave the username visible.

They should ban them. They've banned other people for inflammatory usernames.

AngryAttackKittens · 08/04/2018 09:35

The problem there is that describing a trans child who's male as a boy is deemed offensive by some people. Would that get deleted, if someone complained? Would "male" be OK but "boy" subject to deletion? Certainly "man" for adult male trans people has caused an angry response and complaints before. That language could easily be framed as antagonistic, even if it wasn't intended that way, and that kind of gets to the core of the whole debate, the fact that to most GC people we're just using the words that make sense and seem most logical and accurate, whereas to the people coming from the opposite perspective it's an attack and intended to hurt them.