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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

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999 replies

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:41

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

OP posts:
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ZERF · 06/04/2018 22:03

And regarding the female typical shape, many years of life classes really honed than in me. Learning the way the pelvis and body fat sits differently. When you've had to look carefully for ages to get shading right, or sculpt it correctly, you get a real sense of difference.

athingthateveryoneneeds · 06/04/2018 22:07

@ZERF yep. I'm not an artist, but my DD is, and she can see this things immediately. She has a fascination with skeletons and male/female skeletal structure is screamingly obvious to her.

TERFragetteCity · 06/04/2018 22:14

This is becoming rather recursive. I'm going to try and stop.

You remind me of someone who obscufates and then gets upset when people don't understand the obscufation.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 06/04/2018 22:15

Why have I not seen Ted?

MargeH · 06/04/2018 22:17

What I don't get is why a transwoman would want to retain their penis? Surely every day it just reminds them they're not in a woman's body?

As a woman, I can honestly say I can't think of a single day when I've woken up thinking "I wish I had a dick".

Unless, of course, they're hedging their bets.....

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2018 22:21

I support the campaign for plain english. I've just read the last few pages of this thread and have nfi what half of you are talking about.

I can read and understand legal stuff and medical stuff better than most people.

And yet im still going 'waaaaaaaattttt?'.

Would anyone be so kind as to translate. Im genuinely lost.

TERFragetteCity · 06/04/2018 22:24

Unless, of course, they're hedging their bets..

Isnt it the ultimate for men...to shag a lesbian? They just hate it that a section of women just wont sleep with them because they are men...so declare yourself a woman and bingo.

Juells · 06/04/2018 22:26

Would anyone be so kind as to translate. Im genuinely lost.

Derailment, as far as I could see. Jabber jabber jabber meaningless shite while pretending to elucidate limpidly.

TERFragetteCity · 06/04/2018 22:29

I think the implication was, that because someone on another thread, who said they were up to date with the trans gender debate, and who didnt understand something someone said - was that we were all misinformed...even though the original someone had it explained to them a fair while back by the very same people who are supposedly misinformed.

MargeH · 06/04/2018 22:32

This is going to seem incredibly naïve, I know, but if a transwoman has surgery, can they still be aroused/ have sexual satisfaction? I'm a bit reluctant to google this, tbh.

aRespectableBureaudeChange · 06/04/2018 22:39

I have no artistic ability or particular talent for recalling faces, but I sure as hell spot a geezer when I see him. No-one is fooled; if it isn't the face, it's the body - the waist to hip ratio of a family size box of Cornflakes.

DNA has fundamentally programmed us with a drive to reproduce and spot a healthy me - it's biology. Socially, we form opinions on whom we find attractive, but that instinct to avoid an unwanted pregnancy is what no male will ever really get (or so it seems, from these men telling us being female is just a feeling).

yetanothertranswoman · 06/04/2018 22:40

This is going to seem incredibly naïve, I know, but if a transwoman has surgery, can they still be aroused/ have sexual satisfaction

Yes. It's just different to before.

BudgieInABeret · 06/04/2018 22:41

Red thanks. I thought my brain had melted and dripped out of my ears.

Donna would make an excellent politician.
Never answers a direct question.

Donna I am the same age as you, but because I went to an all girls grammar school I was taught I could be anything I wanted to be.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 06/04/2018 22:44

Derail derail derail...

🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟🐟

Can we go back to angry tomorrow or are we doing 'you're literally killing me' again?

I quite liked the 'Right! Listen! This has gone far enough!' phase myself.

What are you hoping to achieve though? Is Uncle Jezza gong to do PMQ in a woman suit if you get to 10,000 posts?

bluescreen · 06/04/2018 22:45

As a woman, I can honestly say I can't think of a single day when I've woken up thinking "I wish I had a dick".
Oh I don't know - sometimes I've wanted one of those things that makes it easy to pee in the wild. Grin
Especially if it gave me right of way in conversations.

MargeH · 06/04/2018 22:46

yetanothertranswoman

Thank you.

Juells · 06/04/2018 22:48

Especially if it gave me right of way in conversations.

Good one!

BudgieInABeret · 06/04/2018 22:50

If people want Toilet Police I would suggest they ask 3 year old girls. They can tell the difference, and because they have no filter they will proclaim VERY LOUDLY
Mummy why is that man wearing a dress ?
Or
Is that a man or a woman ?
When they actually know the truth, because they can see through the disguise

Mouthtrousersafrocknowandthen · 06/04/2018 22:51

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SimonBridges · 06/04/2018 22:52

(I think the speculation about a recent news event was erroneous incidentally.)

Did I speculate about a news event?

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2018 22:54

Not just me then thinking 'they've put some clever sounding words together to try and look really intelligent and therefore educated, whilst saying absolutely nothing at all' then.

Good good.

Ereshkigal · 06/04/2018 22:56

Guys with tits, always.

AngryAttackKittens · 06/04/2018 22:57

I was watching a movie recently and was going, hey, I know that actress but not sure where from...turned out I'd seen a different movie where all you could really see were her eyes, and that's what I remembered. Works with voices too! Had one of those two recently where I was going, isn't that the younger wife from The Last Emperor speaking? And yes, it was.

PrivatePie · 06/04/2018 22:58

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AngryAttackKittens · 06/04/2018 23:01

Hey, Ereshigal, were you aware that we're apparently the same person? Spooky that we didn't realize till spoonless pointed it out.

Or it could be her who's having the issue distinguishing between different people with roughly the same beliefs. But, you know, probably we're all wrong and she's right.

Many years ago a person who was teaching me about writing pointed out that if one person doesn't understand what you wrote then they may just be an idiot, but if most people don't then it's more likely you're the one not communicating well. Food for thought for some in this thread, that.