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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

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999 replies

DonnaBe · 06/04/2018 07:41

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 06/04/2018 13:46

Talking about the "nice supportive bubble" they have on twitter and all the aggression they're getting here...

You mean pretty much saying word for word what I actually said on this thread?

My suspicion was that was the objective from the word go tbh.

twitter.com/Donna_Beeeee/status/982214753350111232

Never interesting in listening.

FencingFightingTorture35 · 06/04/2018 13:46

'Mostly getting a lot of aggression'

And there you have it.

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LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 06/04/2018 13:47

Love that men/TiMs come on here like "Right, obviously these silly women just haven't had it explained properly to them. My mighty be-penised brain will go forth and re educate their baby addled brains"

Women of MN "Here are many facts and reasoned arguements about why we think this. We don't agree. No"

Men/Tims "Waaahhh. They're all man hating nasty bitches. Why wasn't my big manly explanation enough? Why are they soooo damn clever instead of fluffy wuffy mummies obssessed with shopping and cake??!"

spoonless · 06/04/2018 13:47

Go on, link to the proposal for England then. And don't try to present yourself as impartial, you clearly aren't.

I’m pretty reactionary actually. I worry about overdiagnosis and dilettantes. I didn't know there was a formal proposal yet, and I'm happy to be directed to it if it exists, but that's not the point. I'm talking about counterarguments. Your ally hadn't even heard of the counterarguments.
It seems to me that MN has done her a disservice.

"On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true? "

These are the most basic counterarguments, and someone who has "really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet" hadn't heard them. Doesn't that bother you?

ZERF · 06/04/2018 13:48

True Datun.

It's just a shame the op didn't have the ability to follow.

I'd rather discuss with them than about them.

ZERF · 06/04/2018 13:49

Ability or inclination. Probably latter.

HomeTerf · 06/04/2018 13:50

Jeez... fiercely intelligent, well-informed expert posters investing time in explaining, again and again, what this about for women. And this is what the OP says on twitter

I don’t feel well after a morning being abused by them. But there are civilians on that site and we need to talk to them.

You really don't, OP.

Noqonterf · 06/04/2018 13:50

Instead of flouncing back to Twitter Donna maybe you should stay and engage with us. You might learn something. It doesn't need to be a fight you know. We can just debate. Really you don't need to run off for back up. Aren't you enough just being yourself?

Fairenuff · 06/04/2018 13:50

I wish OP could have clarified why they couldn't use the mens changing facilities.

If a man who looks like a woman can't use the men's, why can a man who looks like a man use the women's?

Is absolutely no logical thinking to OP?

FencingFightingTorture35 · 06/04/2018 13:51

Who has abused you on this thread OP? Do you understand what abuse is? I'm sure a lot of people on here could fill you in

RealityHasALiberalBias · 06/04/2018 13:52

I welcome them giving us a platform by indirect means.

I didn't join mumsnet to discuss feminism. I joined because every time I googled to find advice on subjects ranging from vaccination to pet care to diets to property maintenance, loads of fantastically useful mumsnet threads popped up.

Then I spotted some interesting discussions in the trending sidebar, and realised that this essentially the best feminism discussion forum on the internet. The volume of users means it's always interesting, fast moving, and the brilliant moderators are both fair and laissez faire with a balance I haven't seen anywhere else.

I used to lurk, but this place peak trans-ed me and I feel the need to join in now.

I'm sure others will if the TRAs keep doing our work for us by starting threads like this, then linking to them in online spaces that they have blocked us from. So much for #nodebate.

Datun · 06/04/2018 13:52

They rarely do ZERF.

It is partly that they don't understand. But that's not because they haven't been told, or shown. It's because they don't live it. Therefore they minimise it. Many men do.

It's also, even if they do understand some of it, they just disagree!

They're more important. So it doesn't matter.

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2018 13:53

You missed the other comment:

Donna B @Donna_Beeeee
I think it has to be done. We have to challenge their version of things.

We have a nice supportive bubble here

I don’t feel well after a morning being abused by them. But there are civilians on that site and we need to talk to them

Not for the faint hearted though!

No further comment needed.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 06/04/2018 13:54

I was also at the Edinburgh meeting. I was at the back and had to ask the speakers to speak up a few times because of the noise that the demonstrators were making outsite.

One woman, who is a (v senior) lawyer, was too frightened to pass the demonstration and was just about to back away and go home, but was befriended by another couple of women, who walked in with her. How shocking is that?

Women too frightened to attend a public meeting to discuss legislation which will have a devastating effect on women's lives.

We left in groups, as advised by the police, into awaiting taxis, so that we could not be followed. It was very frightening.

But I will keep going to meetings and will keep talking about it. And we will not be bullied into submission.

The answer is No

'Deal with it'

Noqonterf · 06/04/2018 13:54

I don’t feel well after a morning being abused by them. But there are civilians on that site and we need to talk to them

By civilians you mean people that agree with you right Donna? The ones that are happy to accept what you say with no debate? The ones that accept the erosion of women rights no questions asked. Bugger off Donna.

LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 06/04/2018 13:55

I don’t feel well after a morning being abused by them. But there are civilians on that site and we need to talk to them.

I find the use of "civillians" v interesting.

Do they think we are holding dissenters hostage in some bizarre internet based way??

Or does it make them feel big to talk in a way that frames a perfectly reasonable debate as as an actial war??
Toxic masculinity much??

Datun · 06/04/2018 13:57

and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

I'm not sure exactly what you're saying? You're not allowed to ask for documentation. It's a violation of the privacy part of the EA or GRA (can't remember) which gives someone the 'right to a family life'.

It was part of the original intention. So if someone changed their job, they could go into the new job in their new gender, without having to reveal their trans status.

If you were allowed to ask for documentation, it would be entirely different.

I can't see that happening, though.

SimonBridges · 06/04/2018 13:58

Apparently we are being aggressive.

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LanaKanesTerfyVagina · 06/04/2018 13:58

Women too frightened to attend a public meeting to discuss legislation which will have a devastating effect on women's lives.

We left in groups, as advised by the police, into awaiting taxis, so that we could not be followed. It was very frightening

And yet these women, too frightened of actual real violence are being framed right now as the aggressive ones, as the abusers.

We are the targets of hate, yet we are being targeted as the haters, by the exact same people who are targeting us with hate and violence.

Absolutley fucking batshit.

changeypants · 06/04/2018 13:59

who is going to challenge though, spoonless?

does anyone currently challenge the trans identified males with penises who are already sharing our spaces?

what happens typically to women who challenge the men who invade their boundaries? ever wondered why most women don't retort the cat-calls?

what happened to the women who challenged LMs eligibility for position as labour women's officer?

changeypants · 06/04/2018 14:00

absolutely fucking darvo, Lana

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2018 14:01

Civilian?

Cult mentality.

Freshlylaidterf · 06/04/2018 14:01

LanaKanesTerfyVagina
At the risk of looking like a twat....I have to say it is a bloody priviledge to get to share ideas and debate with some incredibly articulate, intelligent and thoughtful posters
Thank you

^^
I agree!

TinyRick · 06/04/2018 14:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

TheLastMermaid · 06/04/2018 14:03

Sorry haven't rtft but..

How dedicated to anti-trans campaigning are the terfs? They come on here pretending to be normal people, posting for years about bf, parking dilemmas, MILs, bridesmaids, secret cellar rooms, toilet brushes and the school run to lull us into a false sense of security so that they can suddenly trick us into fearing for our daughters' safety on brownie trips and lie about how a GRC + new birth certificate allows you to join an all-women shortlist or win a women's bursary etc. with their reasoned arguments and referenced, linked sources.

Thank goodness for the OP opening our eyes.

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