T

[DonnaBe]

Mumsnet has been invaded by a small group of people who are giving out wrong information about the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act.

They claim that women’s spaces are being invaded and women are being silenced. Please read this and make up your own minds!

A gender Self ID law – like the one proposed in the UK - was recently introduced in Ireland. To change your gender on government records, you need to sign a Statutory Declaration in front of a solicitor and declare that you are living in your acquired gender and intend to stay that way. This is a legal document.

Self ID has not caused problems in Ireland. This is the kind of thing that is being proposed in the UK. It's about making a statement under oath about your acquired gender.

It has been claimed that anyone will be able to claim to be the opposite gender whenever they want. Not true. Nobody is proposing that big blokes with beards can say “I am a woman today” and have legal protection to use women’s loos. If they were, I would be campaigning against it. That is absolutely not what is being proposed

The group behind this campaign are not new. They have been conducting anti-trans campaigns for many years. I don’t think their agenda is women’s welfare so much as expressing their hatred for trans people. The self id proposals have given them an opportunity to attack trans people. Again. They claim they are being silenced, but their views are regularly aired on TV and in the newspapers. And on Mumsnet. They have a right to speak, but I wish they’d tell the truth.

Believe it or not, this all starts with a discussion about marriage. Before 2004, trans people could not marry or stay married because there was no legal way to change the gender on their birth certificates. There was no same sex marriage back then.

The Gender Recognition Act of 2004 introduced the ability to stand in front of a Gender Recognition Panel (cost £140) and get a Gender Recognition Certificate which allowed you to change your birth certificate and get married! This is a bureaucratic arrangement that involves an element of body policing which is not nice.

The proposal now is to replace the GRP / GRC arrangement with a legally binding statutory declaration. Or something like that. That’s all. No whimsical notions like “It’s Friday. I’m a woman today.”

In fact, you can now get married if your transgendered under same sex marriage legislation. So getting a GRC is less relevant. I don’t know if there’s any research on this, but my feeling is most trans people don’t bother getting a GRC anyway.

So this is how things stand today:

There is no law banning men from women’s toilets and changing rooms. There’s only an unwritten rule. The recent Man Friday campaign where women invaded men’s toilets could have the contradictory effect of weakening this rule and end up harming women. The logical conclusion of their campaign is body policing with guards on women’s toilets and women will have to prove their gender before having a pee.

Trans women already use women’s toilets and changing rooms. I do. Nobody notices. I don’t make a song and dance about it. There is no slackening of the law defending women’s spaces because there is no such law. We get on fine without it.

The Gender Recognition Act makes exceptions for things like women’s refuges. These exceptions should be used where appropriate. Already law. Not changing.

You can live in your non-birth gender already. If you pass as that gender well enough, you just do it. You don’t need a law or certificate to do it. Thousands of people live this way and nobody is harmed by it.

‘Would I get out alive? Seriously, Womens Place UK is an organisation that campaigns vigorously against trans women.’

You do know that trans women regularly speak at the events yeah?

DonnaBe you arent doing your cause any favours by lying.

fairplayforwomen.com/womans-place-uk/

Woman's Place asks for;

1. Respectful and evidence based discussion about the impact of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act to be allowed to take place and for women’s voices to be heard;

1. The principle of women only spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended.

1. A review of how the exemptions in the Equality Act which allow for single sex services or requirements that only a woman can apply for a job (such as in a domestic violence refuge) are being applied in practice;

1. Government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women only services and spaces;

1. Government to consult on how self-declaration will impact upon data gathering – such as crime, employment, pay, and health statistics – and monitoring of sex-based discrimination such as the gender pay gap.

that is not being 'anti trans'.

mirandayardley.com/en/contribution-discussion-womens-place-uk-meeting-27-february-2018/

Would I get out alive? Seriously, Womens Place UK is an organisation that campaigns vigorously against trans women.

Such nonsense. Read WPs five principles.

absolutely true. It was 'women only' and since the organisers define me as a man, I was barred.

That is categorically wrong. The venue was changed at the last minute, because Millwall was targeted by transactivists.

Therefore, it was oversubscribed because the meeting room at the House of Commons was too small for number of ticket holders.

There were at least two transwomen in the audience ( One was, I believe a reporter from pink news). And a transwoman hosted the overspill in the pub. I was there. I bought her a drink.

Venice asked men to give up their tickets. She did not say transwomen. So it was ironic that transactivists started to complain as they, automatically, included themselves in the cohort men.

Would I get out alive? Seriously, Womens Place UK is an organisation that campaigns vigorously against trans women.

No they don't. This is a lie. They campaign for natal women's rights. Not against transwomen. The arrogance is astounding. Its not all about you or against you. Natal women have rights independently of transwomen. Can't you see the bloody difference.

THE LIE! THE LIE! THE LIE!

Here it is at last! Thank you Donna for narrowing it down to this:

the lie is still being shouted out that it allows men to declare themselves women whenever they want

Please just try to follow the train of thought.

We know that men will not legally be able to declare themselves women whenever they want.

But when a man is a female only sex segregated space how do we know whether he has that legal right to be there?

That's what we are talking about.

Because a man that will attack, rape, sexually assault, perv on women and girls, get sexual kicks from being in their view, from intimidating them with their presence, is not above taking advantage of any chance to harm women.

Can you follow that? It's not about you. It's about women feeling safe and being protected by law.

Can you understand that?

I would urge you to seek out Debbie Hayton as a matter of urgency!

Why are you not acknowledging/responding to the Cotton Ceiling evidence now you’ve been presented with it?

Women are fighting for their lives daily, worldwide. But we don’t see many in the trans community shouting about that do we, whereas women are expected to stand up for trans “rights” which directly affect us and not in a positive way.

Our biology DEFINES US and is the source of our oppression. We are now being told our biology doesn’t matter and we are bigots for even discussing it (see pussy hats at the women’s march as one of many examples).

And the whole, “are women who cannot reproduce less of a woman man then?” is utter nonsense. They suffer from a problem with their female reproductive system - a wholly female issue and experience. Would you say a person who was born with no legs was any less of a human?

Womens Place UK is an organisation that campaigns vigorously against trans women

Oh look.....another blatant lie.

They are campaigning to KEEP WOMENS SAFE SPACES.

That is it.

They fully support trans people to have THEIR OWN SAFE SPACES.

NOT invade our long fought for and only just achieved spaces.

I don't know how much clearer we can be on this.

Would I get out alive? Seriously, Womens Place UK is an organisation that campaigns vigorously against trans women.

That is an outright lie.

They campaign for women. Of the biological kind. I'm sorry that we won't all repeat "transwomen are women" like good brainwashed females. But the fact is, we are different.

And to imply that they would be violent towards you because you are a transwoman - well - it's laughable. Many transwomen have already attended meetings, and spoken at them.

Venice asked men to give up their tickets. She did not say transwomen. So it was ironic that transactivists started to complain as they, automatically, included themselves in the cohort men

^^This.

We know that men will not legally be able to declare themselves women whenever they want.

They are though. By the EA 2010 and the woolly way it is written. OP thinks that we should just shut up about it though as it's not the GRA, and allow our sex category to be eroded still further.

And the HoC meeting did ban trans women. There was horror that a Pink News journalist managed to attend.

I don't believe that's the reason. There was horror that he recorded it. Because it was against the rules.

We Need To Talk had been told that recording was expressly forbidden.

Anyone can buy tickets. Of course you can get out alive. Women aren't the habit of beating up men.

And again making out that women are the violent ones, for, ya know, speaking up and debating, when almost all violence is male.

Feminists aren't going around being violent to towards trans people.

Transwomen are going around being violent towards feminists though.

"The cake is a lie!"

I eat cakes. [Cake]

If you've come to the conclusions about the women here, those in parliament and those involved with WPUK based on your twitter feed, I'm not surprised you have the views you have expressed... a huge amount of lies and propaganda have been produced, absorbed and repeated...

@DonnaBe

Would I get out alive? Seriously,

How ridiculous. The threats of violence and actual violence only come from the transactivists towards women not the other way around.

Are you getting there yet, Donna? Are you starting to realise that the picture is bigger and more nuanced than you thought assumed, were told to believe?

Yeah I'm with @HarryLovesDraco

You have no intention to read any of our arguments, views, links.

You are here just to tell us wimmin how mean we are being and that we are murdering you all.

Ffs. Heard it all before.

I am actually stunned that you think we just read someone else's opinion (an anti trans campaigner, whatever one of them is) about the law around the GRA changes and concluded that they would harm us, without doing any research about the subject.

See www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3213408-trans-unpeak-moment for a genuinely conscientious poster who's "really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices" but hadn't even heard the counterarguments or known that Self-ID "means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman...changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

That blew my tiny mind, MN.

@DonnaBe
I notice you missed off the second part of my post when you quoted it. I said:

How about we define men and women as we always have done, but you can choose whatever gender role you like.

Meaning, that you can choose to do whatever you want to do, without being restricted by your biology. Not some regressive return to the '60s as you suggested, which is the opposite of what I was saying.

But men are still adult human males and women are still adult human females. That definition doesn't need to change and should not change because that distinction between the sexes is important.

I thought the meaning of my post was completely clear, but maybe I need to explain things in a bit more detail to make sure people understand.

I really don't mean this to sound rude, but we live in a changing world. We have the internet, electricity, anti-biotics. And social change.

Social change doesn't mean that we have to go back to a regressive 1950s style stereotyping of gender roles. We could move forward into a world where gender roles do not exist, and women and men can express themselves any they wish without having to believe in a delusion that by doing so they are 'changing sex'.

I'm not into doing things the old way myself.

Transgender ideology is all about regressive sex-role stereotypes - or 'the old way' as you put it. The way to move forward is to say that we are all either male or female, but we can have any personality we want.

It must be so hard to keep up the narrative when faced with people who were actually at these events, helped organise them, followed them closely.

So mean of us to let the truth get in the way of "angry irrational women are all big meanies" schtick.