Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

Ok, right, I am not a neuroscientist, but have worked as a molecular genetics researcher, so can decipher the literature and look things up (which is a disclaimer – I am speed reading up on these brain associations in response to your excellent questions – I am not an expert).

@datun

As I understand it to be sure that differences were present from birth, you would have to scan the brains of lots of babies at birth, record all the brain characteristics and then interview them as adults to see whether those who had the traits you are interested in had specific brain characteristics at birth (i.e., a longitudinal study).

@Prancingonthevalentine

What does that region of the brain do in people without gender dysphoria

Ok, from what I’ve read, it connects a region of the brain associated with thinking about yourself (apparently identified by studies of depressives with who can’t stop thinking negatively about themselves and things they have done), with a region of the brain that is associated with your awareness of where your body is in space.

It’s a fascinating area of study.

That bloody Stella Creasy twitter feed is a shocker. People tell you they’re concerned something might happen. You tell everyone not to worry, it won’t happen. It happens. You tell them it would have happened anyway. WTAF!

@WombOfOnesOwn truly trans-Napoleonic

@datun - or preferably scan the brains of children numerous times between birth and adulthood to look for associations. Good luck getting ethics approval or funding for that!

Thanks @bd67th @LangCleg

Well that was a shitshow!

It would be interesting to get the women whose child was involved to write it up as a blog if she would be happy too.

One small thing that some news publications in Canada are doing about the legal requirement that they lie about a suspect's sex is publish a picture of the perp so people can see that the article is describing a transgender male as a woman.

Writing law that requires the population to pretend to share a delusion is the worst kind of law it is possible to write.

I'll never, ever, ever, again listen to a single word Stella says and believe it comes from a place of integrity. Never.

Her comments in that thread were appalling. Yes, worried parents, please inform your daughters that seeing a boy fondling his penis in the showers is exactly the same as seeing another girl masturbate (which let's be honest, how often does that happen in shared shower areas among 11 year olds?), and if your transphobic bigot of a daughter is unconvinced then let me know so I can arrange counselling for her.

If you're reading, Stella, congrats on having the integrity of a cockroach and the courage of a particularly timid chihuahua.

On the subject of sport, anyone know when the NZ weightlifting trans competitor Laurel Hubbard is due to compete in the commonwealth games? I'm wondering what kind of response there will be to this, and whether they will gain medals - I think if anything will bring this absurdity into sharp focus it's the prospect of Laurel winning medals at the commonwealth games, and the media coverage that will follow - if there are any UK based competitors it'll be hard to avoid especially if they narrowly is out on a medal as a result.

RatRolyPoly Thu 05-Apr-18 16:37:10
No, that isn't why jelly. The stats relate to the proportion of the trans community currently participating in organised sport. A trans competitor is legally obliged to disclose their trans status to the sports governing body. There would be literally no point in not doing so because any short-term advantage that could be gained (assuming they were a dirty cheat) would be bindingly obvious and any achievement removed and that person disqualified. Totally pointless. And unlike with doping it would be nigh-on impossible to get away with.

Uh huh. Except this has already happened, hasnt it? Ralph Knibbs nearly died after being stabbed by Lauren Jeska, and his sporting career is over.

The Danish bloke is doing a Louis Theroux and pretending to be serious whilst mocking the subject, isn't he?

Womb - I have particularly large hands and feet, and usually wear men's trainers and gloves because they are not pink fit me better. Maybe I am a bloke after all, hey

The Olympic committee allows transgender identified males to compete with women as long as their testosterone is below 10 nmol/L.
Female athletes usually have below 3.08 nmol/L.
Sweden-based Professor Martin Ritzén, a specialist in pediatric endocrinology, testified on behalf of the IAAF and said the probability of a healthy woman reaching 10 nmol/L of testosterone was “zero.”

From what I know about this most trans women testosterone on hrt is aimed for and kept to less than 3 nmol, and would very rarely be as high as 10, unless the hrt wasn't achieving the aim.
It is in fact usually less than cis women.

Caster Semanya a female athlete has excessive amounts of testosterone, and the IAFF made this decision and ruling…

“The IAAF policy on hyperandrogenism, or high natural levels of testosterone in women, was suspended following the case of Dutee Chand v. Athletics Federation of India (AFI) & The International Association of Athletics Federations, in the Court of Arbitration for Sport, decided in July 2015.[65] The ruling found that there was a lack of evidence provided that testosterone increased female athletic performance and notified the IAAF that it had two years to provide the evidence.”

Also hrt affects tendons and ligament elasticity negatively when aiming to mobilise a male skeleton, it's not cut and dried.

On the subject of sport, anyone know when the NZ weightlifting trans competitor Laurel Hubbard is due to compete in the commonwealth games?

The transgender lifter is bound to attract the attention of gathered media, fans and opposing camps, when she competes in the women's +90kg class starting on Monday.

www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/102761679/new-zealand-weightlifter-laurel-hubbard-avoiding-commonwealth-games-spotlight

it's not cut and dried

Yes it is. Males should not be competing with females. I couldn't give a shiny shit what drug regime they're on.

no problem, your entitled to your opinion of course. I was just trying to add some facts to the testosterone discussion

"Post estrogen usage men may have slightly less of an advantage over women than they did before, possibly, so that means they should be allowed to compete with women even though this is all deliberately vague".

No.

But they would have benefited from testosterone all their lives up until the point they transition.

And all the other physiological differences between men and women.

Where are all the transmen, on testosterone, competing against and beating men?

Are female competitors allowed to take testosterone for years? Get match fit, then stop and reduce their levels to the acceptable number?

Someone mentioned cognitive dissonance. This.

I have a recurring nightmare where I'm in a dangerous situation (usually with my grown up daughters or pupils at my school) and yet I'm mute and immobile. I keep trying to let them know they're in imminent danger but can't. It's a horrible horrible recurring dream.

This situation feels EXACTLY like this.

I'm in shock at the redefinition of woman in Scotland and the imminent dismantling of everything I felt we as feminists had won for ourselves and our daughters.

Over time all most benefits of testosterone reverse, such as muscle mass etc definitely within a range that other cis women will have naturally, its not like steroids where you can bulk up and stop.

I saw a study recently that suggested some events give trans women an advantage, some a disadvantage, I would suggest weightlifting could possibly be a sport that gives trans women an advantage, but all I was saying is its not cut and dried, and as someone earlier in the thread said, it's up to the relevant authorities to find ways to ensure an even playing field, and like many other areas of life, people are playing catch-up in how to integrate trans people.

Trans people are not going anywhere, it's best to have a honest healthy discussion about nuance, because their is nuance in everything, sweeping statements and demanding trans people stay out of sport, or stick to competing with their natal sex is not going to achieve anything, the world has already moved on

crispbuttyfan

So where are all the transmen beating men? You haven't answered.

Go talk "nuance" to the woman whose orbital bone Fallon Fox broke during an MMA bout. Have fun explaining to her how the staples she had to get in her skull prove that taking estrogen over an extended period eliminates men's physical advantage over women in sport.

There are already male trans athletes winning against women in sports such as cycling, boxing and weightlifting, fell running, roller derby. There are already trans sportsmen taking the place of women in team sports such as football, Australian rules football and basketball.

Every time a man identifying as a woman competes on the female team, he is taking the place of a woman.

Women's rights are being eroded.

When a tennis playing man who is 600 in the world suddenly beats Serena Williams, I can assure you, categorically, that the world would not have moved on.

It is in fact usually less than cis women

There is no such thing as cis women. Women. That's the word that describes women.

I hope loads and loads of trans athletes take part in women's sport, it will show it up for the bullshit that it is.

It's a serious question crispbuttyfan.

If a tennis playing man, who no one has ever heard of because he 600 in the world beat Serena Williams in straight sets at Wimbledon, would you view that as progressive/'the world moving on'?

I'll make a last post on this thread because it seems to have gone a little weird, with all sorts of claims and projection....

Kye Allums and chris mosier are trans man athletes, as time goes on I'm sure there will be more coming through, most trans men who have a history in sport seem to have saved transitioning till retirement such as Balian Buschbaum.

Trans male athletes will be more common in time, to say they won't because there aren't many now is fine as an opinion, but it relies on projection

Fallon Fox is not undefeated, nor is she the only person to inflict serious injury in womens mma, many cis women have inflicted equally and worse damage to other cis women.

The stuff about all those different sports from datun, needs individual citation, they just seem as hyperbolic as the Serena williams line...

All I have said is that it is not cut and dried and there are discussions to be had, clearly so far, no-one whants a discussion or to accept nuance, preferring hyperbole and projection

Well there's a bit in the video where he says something along the lines of 'I have legally changed my gender, so I should be able to access women's spaces, otherwise what is the point of the law which allows me to declare myself a woman?'.

Yeah, I thought he made it as obvious as possible (while still keeping to the language of TRAs) that he was holding up the ridiculous nature of these laws.

Essentially he is doing exactly what #manfriday does, but with much less laudable motivations. Looking at his other 'art' he clearly wants to gain as much attention as possible by being provocative and offensive.