Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

I don't understand why people say "it's getting nasty on both sides ". Because I've seen plenty of tweets from TRAs threatening violence to "terfs". I've read news reports of actual violence from TRAs. But I've never seen any threats of violence from "terfs" to TRAs. And I've looked for it. But I just haven't.

All those sports are easily googleable. If fact, an advanced search on here under the feminist boards will show thread after thread about them.

The Serena Williams 'line' is a genuine question.

Serena Williams is a world famous tennis player who is adored by many. She regularly talks about her journey and how she has become such a fantastic athlete. And is an inspiration to girls everywhere.

According to John McEnroe, and another tennis pundits, she could easily be beaten by a man who is 600 in the world.

I would genuinely like to know whether you think that would be progressive and something that demonstrates the world has moved on.

Because you can't pick and choose which female athletes are going to be disadvantaged by this. It will be the popular ones, as well as nine-year-old Sally on school sports day.

Or is it the fact that the world would be in uproar, should that happen, that makes it not feel like 'the world has moved on'.

Men competing as women is either fair, to you, or it isn't.

You can't suddenly decide it's hyperbole when it's someone like Serena Williams.

Or would only be acceptable if it's non famous women? You know, the ones without power.

I'll make a last post on this thread because it seems to have gone a little weird,

I missed this. Shame.

I'd like to see you agree, firstly that you understand Serena Williams could be beaten by 500 men. And secondly that you would find that progressive.

@picklemepopcorn

That clip is brilliant. I hope you don't mind my posting it again.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=egN-9-7kTEw

Newsflash- Men who take performance disenhancing*drugs: still not women.

Women who take performance enhancing drugs: still not men

Point of sex segregated sport continuing if it's not actually sex segregated- bollocks all if you are a woman

I actually don't give a shiny shit if trans people can't compete in high level competitive sports. Neither can the vast majority of the population. I also don't care if they can't compete in women's sports at any level. They can still compete in sports with those of their natal sex or choose one of the many sports/activities that are not sex segregated.

Women are allowed some things of their own.

*disenhancing is definitely a totally real word right?

Ooh some weird formatting on that one! Might be a bit pissed

@crispbuttyfan

From what I know about this most trans women testosterone on hrt is aimed for and kept to less than 3 nmol, and would very rarely be as high as 10, unless the hrt wasn't achieving the aim.
It is in fact usually less than cis women.

The aim according to one of the latest studies on transwomen on testosterone suppressant is to achieve a level below 3.5 nmol/l. The average range for healthy adult women is 0.5 nmol/l to just below 2.5 nmol/l.

According to one of the first longer term studies (up to 3.5 yrs on testosterone suppressant), the most successful results were in patients who achieved 0.75nmol/l, which is within the normal female range but not below and according to this study 75% of transwomen did not achieve the desired result, and they didn't even get close to the female range.

Therefore your claim that transwomen "usually" achieve a level of testosterone lower than women is false. Unless your claim is based on a different study?

But even if your claim was true, the IOC has decided on a level of 10nmol/l which is of course at least four times higher than the average healthy woman (even women with Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome only reach 6nmol/l).

And while intersex conditions like Caster Semyana's are extremely rare and the advantage testosterone gives her over the other woman was plain to see for everyone, she is a woman and making allowances for a woman, however advantaged her body makes her is different from allowing male-born people to compete with women.

And as for the general advantage of a male physique over a female physique, the changes resulting from suppressing testosterone that you describe as eroding these advantages would take 15 years according to medical researchers. Given the short duration of most sporting careers, this means an average transwomen continuously suppressing testosterone would be retired before losing that male body advantage.

Here are some of the advantages that remain: larger lung capacity, bigger size, more powerful heart (due to its larger size), larger muscle mass due to increased numbers of myonuclei (muscle fibres) and a larger skeletal muscle fibre area , better muscle memory, longer reach, higher grip strength, better oxygenation of muscles due to increased haemoglobin, faster recovery etc etc - none of these are lost within the short amount of time stipulated by the IOC.

On 10nmol/l their three to four times higher testosterone levels also give transwomen a boost in speed and performance in addition to their other physiological advantages.

So get transwomen involved in community sports by all means. But keep them out of competitive women's sports or admit that you consider the desire of male-born people to excel against female-born people as more important than fair competition.

Re that hyperbolic Serena Williams line:

www.theguardian.com/observer/osm/story/0,,543962,00.html

Ereshkigal

He was so confident he played a round of golf in the morning, then drank a couple of shandies!

And the following week, he would have been 350 in the world.

I can't think of many, if any, female sports that are more popular than women's tennis.

And I really can't understand why crispy thinks it would somehow be immune from the law.

Any man who competes as a woman is cheating. And I don't think it's a surprise to anyone that new and creative ways to cheat in sport are constantly dreamt up.

And this one is completely legal.

It's just a question of time.

@crispbuttyfan you say "the world has already moved on" I'd say the world is going backwards. Women had rights we are losing them. I think females should be a lot more worried.

If reading this thread has got you worried, rightly so, take a look at the petition.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

It's absolutely true. I like Hadley Freeman, but here article was wrong. Self ID for transgender people will mean signing a legal document that you are living in the acquired gender role and tend to stay that way. This is less bureaucratic than the current Gender Recognition Panel.

A small far right group are very good at getting their own spin on this into the press and on TV. They argue that whimsical self id is imminent and that bearded blokes will have a legal right to use women's loos and changing rooms.
This is not the case.
The people organising this are obsessed trans haters who have been campaigning against trans people and in favour of rigid gender definition / body policing for many years. The self id row is their latest go at this.
Beware. They are not interested in women's welfare. Their main aim is the eradication of trans people.

What rights are you losing?

Beware of ourselves? Because the mostly but not exclusively leftist group of women here have had more to do with getting this issue into the news than your mysterious cabal of evil right wing forces that are evil have.

Pitifully clumsy attempt at propaganda, I give it 2.3 out of 10.

Sorry, new here!

@italiangreyhound what rights are you losing? Nobody is taking away any women's rights. Nobody is taking a way women's spaces.

I am a trans woman, without a Gender Recognition Certificate, On Friday, I went shopping, tried on a dress in Hobbs and used the Ladies loos. I chatted with a shop assistant. Nobody noticed or minded. No women were harmed. The sky hasn't fallen. There isn't actually a law against what I did.

There is a claim that women are being silenced. Not true. A pile of misinfomation is being spread by a misogynist far right group about proposed changes to legislation. That group is very vocal and gets its untruths onto TV and in the papers regularly. They've even invaded Mumsnet which is disgraceful.

My god, everyone, we've been invaded! By people who've been here for years, but, you know, the right wing plotted all this out long in advance and commenters you though you knew all this time were actually right wing plants sent to infiltrate mumsnet so that when the battle over self ID that wasn't even on the horizon when they first appeared erupted they'd be there, ready to try to impose traditional gender roles. Especially the lesbians, they're the absolute worse in terms of wanting women to be as traditionally womanly as possible.

They're like the lizard aliens from V, but in twinsets and pearls.

(Adjusts tinfoil hat to rakishly attractive angle)

DonnaBe I'm sure that many trans women do exactly as you say you have, that they always have and that they always will. That does not mean that self-ID is a good thing and poses no problem. You are gaslighting women, telling them it's all in their head and they are being manipulated by malicious forces apparently. If it's all fine, as your experience suggests, then why push for self-ID? No need to change anything, right?

Self ID for transgender people will mean signing a legal document that you are living in the acquired gender role and tend to stay that way.

This lie has been debunked many times here and elsewhere, but like all zombie lies it never dies.

DonnaBe, how Hobbs decide to manage their changing rooms is up to them. I haven’t been there for a while, but from memory they just have changing cubicles opening onto the shop floor that aren’t male or female.

I also don’t have a problem with a shop deciding that they want to have one shared unisex changing room - it’s up to me to decide whether to shop there or not.

The problem is that the concept of the self ID of gender makes all spaces unisex by default, although strangely segregated according to ‘identity’. You will be aware that many women are worried about male violence and want to be able to avoid men, e.g. in a swimming pool changing room. Without clear, objective definitions for the words male and female, they can’t do that.

The existing legislation was a compromise that allowed trans people to live their lives in a world that expects people to conform. It’s true that nobody can ‘live as a woman’ but rather than create legislation to combat discrimination, the proposed new legislation just creates a bigger irrational mess.

If you are a trans woman I might have alot in common with you, but it won’t be that we are both women, it will be because we are both human. We will not suffer the same discriminations (I agree that you might suffer more discrimination, but not the same), and we don’t need the same services.

Language is important and it needs to be clear. You have an absolute right to express your own identity because it is yours, but you don’t share with me.

DonnaBe

That is actually quite funny. Have you heard of mansplaining?

Over time all most benefits of testosterone reverse, such as muscle mass etc definitely within a range that other cis women will have naturally, its not like steroids where you can bulk up and stop.

Testosterone is a steroid.

Fuxxache.

The key 'sports scientist' whose 'findings' say that a bloke who takes a few oestrogen pills becomes just like your average woman has what is commonly known as a conflict of interest. Care to guess why?

www.ozy.com/rising-stars/meet-the-leading-expert-on-trans-athletes/74134

A pile of misinfomation is being spread by a misogynist far right group about proposed changes to legislation.

That isn’t true. I think the reason this topic strikes a chord with so many mumsnetters is that although many members just use MN as a place to talk and many are men it’s a forum that targets women with children, women who are trying to conceive and women who are pregnant.

You can live a lot of your life thinking discrimination against women is a thing of the past, and then suddenly you are talking about maternity leave, trying to understand why you keep having miscarriages, trying to buy children’s clothes that aren’t pink or brown and tell your child of either sex that they can be whoever they want to be, and the consequences of being born male or female hit you like a ton of bricks.

No infiltration required to become gender critical.

They've even invaded Mumsnet which is disgraceful.

And you know this despite being new?

They've even invaded Mumsnet which is disgraceful

Nah mate. We started it. It's amazing what growing a human in your uterus and pushing it out through your vagina will do for your understanding of the biological differences between men and women.

And of course not all Mumsnetters have kids but what's great about Mumsnet is that it's the dark corner if the inter webs that allows women to talk to each other (relatively) unmolested because as soon as you include the word 'Mum' men dismiss our thoughts/opinions as fluffy irrelevant bullshit.

Well guess what we're smart, we're organised and there are 12 million of us. Bet you wish you hadn't spent so long dismissing us all now.

MerryMouse nails it.
No infiltration required to become gender critical.
Exactly my experience.Being a working mother did that for me all by itself thanks.
It has been lifechangingly eyeopening and thank fuck for MN which has helped me to find my way through understanding this shit and to resist it. not to mention the decades of biologically based sexism and harassment and assaults on my consent I experienced because I am a woman and because of gendered expectations of what women are and should do before that.
Gender is positively dangerous for many women and for our kids, and it holds us back in ways that many men can’t even imagine. Why the fuck would women NOT be gender critical?