Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

morningrunner GRA excludes sport? Do elaborate.... this is one of my biggest concerns .... alongside "crime rates, including rape" escalating amongst women....

I thought so many transwomen beginning to be in women's sport that it was becoming a problem?

flowersonthepiano

Would you mind awfully giving me the 'brains for beginners', layman's version of that post?

I can read the words, but I'm struggling for the conclusion.

loveyouradvice

As far as I know, the equality act provides quite clear exemptions in sport. Based on advantage.

But the IOC deemed the only thing creating an advantage was testosterone.

Hence that being the determinant and reduced levels in men being acceptable. Despite them, generally, being much higher than any woman could achieve.

I believe the same exemptions can apply even with a GRC. But someone else might know more than me.

A lot of this is down to interpretation of the law and how you can bend it to your advantage.

Haven't caught up with the whole thread but just wanted to say to loveyouradvice that there is a specific government drive to try and get transpeople involved in sport at the moment! Might be why there's a few more of them involved these days. Sport has proven health and social benefits for individuals, and of course it eases the burden on the NHS. Transpeople are currently the least represented of all minority groups (as a proportion of their numbers), hence the drive. I can find the stats later but they're available online.

The current GRA exclusions mean that each sports governing body doesn't have to automatically treat transpeople like a member of their chosen sex. It means each individual sport can set their own rules and guidelines surrounding trans participation (i.e. hormone levels, individual assessments, review panels etc) to ensure transpeople can be included without compromising safety or "fair competition" (i.e. so there is no forgone conclusion) in each individual sport.

One of the fundamental aims of the sporting ethos is inclusion and participation, but equally so are safety and fair competition. The power is in the hands of governing bodies to achieve that, as it should be IMO. They are, after all, the experts in their sports.

Oh, I should say the exemptions apply specifically to people with a GRC as well. It is one of the few times when legal gender is not the determining factor for how your are treated, because the reasons for not doing so are legitimate.

Transpeople are currently the least represented of all minority groups (as a proportion of their numbers), hence the drive. I can find the stats later but they're available online.

Isn't this because they are competing in the opposite sex rather than declaring themselves as trans people? I don't know of any sports clubs that ask the question 'Do you identify as trans?'.

No, that isn't why jelly. The stats relate to the proportion of the trans community currently participating in organised sport. A trans competitor is legally obliged to disclose their trans status to the sports governing body. There would be literally no point in not doing so because any short-term advantage that could be gained (assuming they were a dirty cheat) would be bindingly obvious and any achievement removed and that person disqualified. Totally pointless. And unlike with doping it would be nigh-on impossible to get away with.

Loobyanna that Reddit site is fascinating. And quite concerning. There are a lot of confused, anxious, unhappy posters on there. And 3 pp saying they feel suicidal. I feel genuinely concerned for them.

Are you talking about the higher levels Rat? Because otherwise I can't see how they could possibly be accounting for this. People going for a run or a swim or karate practice or skiing or a game of tennis in the park are not going to be counted but they are still taking part in sport.

A trans competitor is legally obliged to disclose their trans status to the sports governing body.

Which law would that be?

From what I understand of the stats jelly, yes, they would be included. This is based on transpeople responding to government surveys as to whether or not they participate in regular sporting activities. Not higher levels at all but things like joining a running club, playing in a squash ladder, joining a netball team etc. Because such a woeful number are enjoying the benefits of sport, the guidance has come down to governing bodies and through them down to local clubs on how to encourage and facilitate participation.

It's a requirement within the GRC, that law jelly. I mean it's actually written in there as far as I recall. Will be able to link to sources once I've sorted the nursery pick-up and kiddy snacks.

@Datun – ok here’s my attempt to translate the abstract into plain English.

This is the abstract of the Swedish study on brain differences

Both transgenderism and homosexuality are facets of human biology, believed to derive from different sexual differentiation of the brain. The two phenomena are, however, fundamentally unalike, despite an increased prevalence of homosexuality among transgender populations. Transgenderism is associated with strong feelings of incongruence between one’s physical sex and experienced gender, not reported in homosexual persons.

I think this is self-explanatory?

The present study searches to find neural correlates for the respective conditions, using fractional anisotropy (FA) as a measure of white matter connections that has consistently shown sex differences.

Translation: In this study, we looked for differences in the nerve cells of the brain using the measurement of fractional anisotropy – which is a brain imaging technique that measures properties of nerve cells (e.g., their shape and density in a particular region of the brain, among other things) – which has been shown in several studies to detect sex differences between brains.

We compared FA in 40 transgender men (female birth-assigned sex) and 27 transgender women (male birth-assigned sex), with both homosexual (29 male, 30 female) and heterosexual (40 male, 40 female) cisgender controls.

Self-explanatory?

Previously reported sex differences in FA were reproduced in cis-heterosexual groups, but were not found among the cis-homosexual groups.

Translation: the previously reported sex differences in brain cells were observed in heterosexuals but not in homosexuals.

After controlling for sexual orientation, the transgender groups showed sex-typical FA-values. The only exception was the right inferior fronto-occipital tract, connecting parietal and frontal brain areas that mediate own body perception.

Translation: If you control for differences in sexuality, the nerve cells in the brains from transgender people were typical of those for their own birth sex, except in a specific area of the brain, ‘the right inferior fronto-occipital tract’, which is known to be associated with how people perceive their own body.

Our findings suggest that the neuroanatomical signature of transgenderism is related to brain areas processing the perception of self and body ownership, whereas homosexuality seems to be associated with less cerebral sexual differentiation.

Translation: the authors of the study conclude that transgenderism (I would say gender dysphoria, because all transgender participants were diagnosed with gender dysphoria) is associated with differences in a brain area associated with perception of your own body, whereas homosexuality is associated with less distinct differences in the nerve cell properties measured between men and women, compared with heterosexuals.

flowersonthepiano

Thank you!

So it does sound as though it's similar to anorexia?

It would be interesting to take transwomen who insist they are trans, but do not have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. I'm sure that would show completely different results.

After listening to transwomen, I have absolutely no doubt that although the condition is exacerbated by gender norms, there was already a propensity.

I'm sure, when I first looked at this, I found a study (which must be 2 to 3 years ago) that had very similar results.

The conclusion was they couldn't work out whether this body perception was something they were born with, or just the result of years of obsession over their body.

Could that be said of this study? Or does it show that the differences are definitely congenital?

Could that be said of this study? Or does it show that the differences are definitely congenital?

Study was in adults so definitely doesn't prove that the differences are present at birth.

So the only way to prove it was present at birth is to scan the brain of a baby?

There's nothing else to indicate that it's always been there?

Sorry if these questions sound basic. My understanding has always been the plasticity of the brain has to be taken into account.

I just wondered if there was a way of eliminating plasticity as a reason.

Re:sports, many amateur sports groups don’t have anything to do with the sports governing body, and many people who compete at a high level in sports are too young to have a GRC.

This is where people need to be honest about conflicting needs.

Unfortunately many schools and youth groups are already being advised that girls who object to competing against somebody with a male body are transphobic and that being female is a matter of identity. This requires Handmaiden’s Tale levels of dishonesty and gaslighting and just makes it more difficult to find a rational solution.

What does that area of the brain "do" in (I'm trying to think of the right phrase) a non-gender-dysphoric person?

I don't trust sports authorities to do the right thing. Look at Lauren Jeska. No GRC, no paperwork re medical issues. When this was finally asked for by Ralph Knibbs - don't forget, Lauren had already been winning races against women for several years and no-one gave a shit - poor Ralph was stabbed almost to death. Lauren is now in a women's prison.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren_Jeska

@TimbuktuTimbuktu @ancientlights It's at mobile.twitter.com/TracyXXs/status/975379101761486848

It's at mobile.twitter.com/TracyXXs/status/975379101761486848

I almost had a rage stroke when I read that. Peer on peer sexual assault my fucking arse. What feminist would ever deliberately obfuscate who's doing what to whom like that?

I'll never, ever, ever, again listen to a single word Stella says and believe it comes from a place of integrity. Never.

oh, I agree that those studies don't actually show the differences many trans activists believe they do -- but even if they did show many differences that made their brains more similar to their preferred sex, what of it? There are women whose feet are very similar to male feet, are they men? There are men who have gynecomastia and therefore have breasts that are much closer (than a typical man's breasts) to those of women, are they women?

The idea that a few brain structures, even if these studies showed massive evidence of differences, would mean the difference between delusion and a reality we must accept ... well, it's preposterous. If we still had Napoleon's brain to study, we wouldn't go about to all the residents of locked wards who think they're Napoleon, seeking out the ones whose brains most resembled his so we could identify them as "truly" trans-Napoleonic.

My understanding has always been the plasticity of the brain has to be taken into account.

This is the thing, Datun. There'll never be a belt and braces diagnostic study because brain plasticity renders comprehensive control groups impossible.

That said, at least the Swedish study controlled for homosexuality, which most of the ones the TRAs like to quote did not.

Consent matters, unless the person violating your boundaries has more oppression points than you, in which case why are you being so mean?

Yep and the worst thing a girl can be is mean. We’ve been shamed with that all our lives. Be a nice girl! Nice girls!