Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

Its fine that TIM come here and talk about the potential problems of self id, but they are preaching to the converted. They need to spend time talking to other TIM to spread the message. I could be wrong - they may be lots of discussion about self id on trans forums.

But I've yet to see someone genuinely, whole heartedly move from gender critical to trans ally.

Me neither. Ally in the sense of not just supportive of trans people but supportive of transactivists. Once you've seen the misogyny you can't unsee it.

But I've yet to see someone genuinely, whole heartedly move from gender critical to trans ally.

Me neither. Ally in the sense of not just supportive of trans people but supportive of transactivists. Once you've seen the misogyny you can't unsee it.

Hi there. As the original OP (that seems like a looong time ago) the point I was trying to make was that there are more nuances to the debate than I realised, and as I uncover more information it shifts me along the spectrum. This is a learning curve and I retain the right to reevaluate my view continually. That's what good debate does.

Apart from a quick delve into twitter after reading the responses to Hadley F, I'm not aware of what transactivsts are saying or who they are as I don't read about this issue elsewhere, so I'm dependent somewhat on the accuracy of information and debate on here. Maybe that's my lazy default, but hey.

Pity there couldn't be an FAQ response to capture the main areas, but not possible on this forum.

Are they real though. Strikes me as quite useful for TRA that ou have a cohort of 'unpeakers'.

I assumed that that was the case.

so I'm dependent somewhat on the accuracy of information and debate on here.

Why should everyone else do your work for you? Once I came across references to how Self Id would impact on women I searched online to find more information, and looked on twitter at what transactivists were saying about women who wanted discussion before legislation was decided on.

Nobody should form an opinion purely from reading about a subject in one place, you could be being fed a load of bollocks.

I'm not sure why you thought my post referred to you OP. I was agreeing that people who have actually reached their peak do not generally then go to a position where they think aggressive transactivism is a positive thing.

Are they real though. Strikes me as quite useful for TRA that ou have a cohort of 'unpeakers'.

Especially once people started to point out how people only ever move to GC, they never ever seem to go the other way.

I imagine what happens a lot is people go from actual transphobe, as in someone who actually thinks men are men and shouldn’t wear dresses to trans ally.
But because they are using the word transphobe to mean people wo don’t agree with them then it fits their narrative.

I've said before that I started as broadly in line with the MN GC majority on this (although I never "peaked" at that point as I hadn't yet engaged with the debate), before becoming one to speak up to the contrary quite frequently! That's not to say I support idiot TRAs on twitter - does anyone??

I was met with incredulity as apparently this never happens. I think it's quite clear though that those for whom it does happen probably have no desire to broadcast or debate the fact on MN. MN is great for GC people who feel they can't air their views elsewhere, but not so much for anyone on the other side of the fence - not least because their views are often seen as a threat to the right to express GC views at all. Or an attempt to silence debate, when in fact that is debate. You have to have a mighty strong constitution and be a certain type of person to be loudly non-gc on here.

Its fine that TIM come here and talk about the potential problems of self id, but they are preaching to the converted. They need to spend time talking to other TIM to spread the message. I could be wrong - they may be lots of discussion about self id on trans forums

If you thought Twitter was bad...

I have an occasional venture over but as you can see from my username, it hardly ever goes well. The forum I used to use has been fully assimilated.

I think a fair few of the yet-to-be converted are coming over here to see what all the fuss is about

This place is like Piccadilly Circus compared to a year ago

Or an attempt to silence debate, when in fact that is debate.

I disagree. But yelling transphobes and running IS a way to try and silence debate. and it worked for a very long time so i can see why people still try it.

As a side note, good to see you posting again rat. Not sure if it was on this UN or a previous one but I was talking to you in an AIBU thread about this whole thing and it turned out that you had experienced some posts you felt were nasty towards you. Glad you are back. I disagree with many many of your comments on the topic (mainly on the sport thing, tbh) but I do feel you express yourself well and of course its important to hear 'the other side' so to speak too. Echo chambers are no good to anyone and its good to have someone who can argue their case without just screaming bigot.

This place is like Piccadilly Circus compared to a year ago

Yes, I have never seen the feminism forum so busy, its good that so many women are waking up to the implications of this all now. I have only been on here maybe 3 years now but even in the past few months there has been a very noticeable influx of new members that are becoming regulars in this section. I barely even venture into AIBU anymore, and I used to be there all the time with just a peek at FWR if a thread was trending.

@Juells

It's precisely because I did look at information elsewhere that I started the thread. The information elsewhere challenged my perceptions that were being developed solely through MN, though I get a sense that developing critical thinking that might lead to a different opinion isn't as encouraged.

Again, it's ok to debate. I am allowed to question. These boards can't just be about a forced consensus. I didn't join a one voice union when I came onto MN.

Personally I do respect adults making their own choices about life. It is when their choice curtails or harms mine that I'm bothered. Many trans stories move me to sympathy and acceptance, but it's when their vision or perhaps feeling of the world is superimposed by laws that dent my rights as a woman that I fight back my feelings to accommodate a minority. Pedophiles are a minority and hope I will never be asked to accommodate their needs. I become aware of Trans activism via school girls who had lesbian inclinations towards each other, then one discovered trans. I was amused at the start, it was all about how men had it hard too, they poor things were body shamed, experienced abuse even rape. When I said women cannot rape because they have no penis, they were very upset and argued back. Afterwards, I realised they might have been reading US trans activist posts online. Nowadays just after they turned 18. One is a straight trans man (still loves women), one is a gay transman in a relationship with another transman already on T and broadcasting green light for top job in 4-6 months, another is a transman in drag in a relationship with a transman. 5 great above average intelligence women that started as lesbians and are no more. That peaked me big time.

Jayceedove, I don't know how else I can tell you, I entirely disagree with you, your views, and your framing to back up your views, I don't think I have ever disagreed with anyone so much. You views are the polar opposite to the vast majority of trans people, which is why you are accepted on here. Nothing you have said is based in evidence or fact, you are just repeating your opinions. You claimed a GRC was necessary to enter female spaces a couple of pages ago, now you've moved your argument on.
You do you.

sunflowers what was the information you found elsewhere?

Also if I may add to the discussion,

Peak trans, is the point when someone who already holds bias and prejudice against trans women, finds an excuse or a flimsily constructed reason to frame their prejudice as righteous based on the actions of individuals or a selection of individuals, to denigrate a whole class of people that runs into 10's of millions.

It's understandable that people get persuaded to fall into line with this with endless propaganda, and falsehoods, the kind of which this thread is littered with.

Are you serious crispy???

I was brought up by lesbians, I have known transwomen my entire life. My godmother is trans.

I have literally fought for trans rights my entire life, I have gone to a pride march every single year since I was born.

It kills me that I am now on the side which is painted as ‘antitrans’ as it could not be further from the truth.
I am not prejudice against trans people. At all.

You views are the polar opposite to the vast majority of trans people

All depends on how you define trans.

I think that in the context of single sex spaces - which is probably the main concern on here (although there are others), trans should mean transsexual - where people undergo HRT and most probably surgery to enter single sex spaces. Oh - and medical diagnosis as well.

There are many trans people who don't think that .But they aren't transsexual.

You views are the polar opposite to the vast majority of trans people, which is why you are accepted on here.

Proof of this claim? Also there are trans people who do agree with self ID who post on here, and they are 'accepted' too, whatever that means.

Nothing you have said is based in evidence or fact, you are just repeating your opinions.

Ditto to you.

Did you answer if you were actually trans by the way? As you said that its trans people who understand this all more than others due to lived experience? Where, if you are not trans, you are basically telling a trans person how to feel on the topic.

Peak trans, is the point when someone who already holds bias and prejudice against trans women, finds an excuse or a flimsily constructed reason to frame their prejudice as righteous based on the actions of individuals or a selection of individuals, to denigrate a whole class of people that runs into 10's of millions.

Again false. Most people on here came to this point from being a totally unquestioning ally. I know I did. I still have sympathy for transsexual people. I actually have a transwoman in my family (a gender critical one, you wouldn't like her and would claim she was just using anti trans propaganda or whatever ) so understand more than many quite how crippling the illness is. I would never want to make a transsexual persons life harder than it already is. But a transsexual person is miles away from a crossdressing fetishist or a bloke who is just a bit feminine, or 'non binary' or whatever. The issue is with all major trans organisations classing each of these people as the same. They are not the same, or even similar.

Peak trans, is the point when someone who already holds bias and prejudice against trans women, finds an excuse or a flimsily constructed reason to frame their prejudice as righteous based on the actions of individuals or a selection of individuals, to denigrate a whole class of people that runs into 10's of millions

I kind of agree with that - as I am worried that 'peak trans' leads to backlashes against the trans community.

BUT - it doesn't help when members of that community act like selfish idiots - for example entering weight lifting competitions after transitioning, becoming women's officer at a young age etc

Because it all adds fuel to the fire and helps people 'peak trans'

All depends on how you define trans.

There are many trans people who don't think that .But they aren't transsexual.

Spot on.

I kind of agree with that - as I am worried that 'peak trans' leads to backlashes against the trans community.

I prefer the term 'peak transactivist' tbh. I think most who 'peak' have no issue with actual transsexual people, its the ideology itself thats the issue.

yetanother... like the anti-trans stuff on here, what you just posted about someone being selfish and entering womens weighlifting etc
Is all about telling other people how to live their lives, and again using an individuals actions as a reason to hold all trans people accountable.

You just illustrated my point perfectly.

Teacup, if what you say is true, and I'll take you at your word, if you, like others on here seem to draw a distinction between groups of trans people, and claim something like true trans people are worthy of support, its the 'others'.
That distinction only exists in discourse such as the anti-trans brigade, there are no distinct groups of trans people, they blend into each other, it is spectrums.

Of course its easy to pinpoint two trans people that are distinctly different, but there are many trans people that exist and fill in the gap between those examples, this is impossible to police even if there was a reason to.

At best the people who are claiming to support 'true' transexuals, are then dismissive of all other forms of expression including gender fluid, some elements of GNC expression etc, and in fact invested in keeping idea's of gender very binary, which I would think also goes against quite a lot of feminist theory.

If a trans women passes, and has grc etc etc it seems some people will be happy to share a space, so basically a trans women that 'looks and behaves in a way expected of a cis woman is ok?
That trans person is then accused of embracing feminine stereotypes and is lambasted for that.
Any trans women, that looks or behaves differently is accused of not being trans, being a man in a frock, a fetishist etc etc

This is a no-win situation for trans women, and this is a deliberate framing.