Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

You views are the polar opposite to the vast majority of trans people

I really don’t mean this to be antagonistic, but I don’t know what you mean here when you say ‘trans’, and I think that that is part of the problem. Could you define ‘trans’ more clearly?

What is the difference between somebody who is bigender and somebody who doesn’t believe they have a gender for instance?

they blend into each other, it is spectrums

So how can I talk about the pay gap between men and women if I can’t define men and women?

I think Mumsnet, like everywhere else is becoming very black and white. And that's the problem with painting all transexual as good and all non transexual trans as bad.

I'd rather be alone with someone like lily M, who I'm confident I could shut up with a Paddington Bear stare, than Holly W, who had no problems with verbally abusing an elderly women knowing that it was being filmed.

I think it is misguided to paint the young trans as the bad guy, it's going to alienate the young and their parents.

Women don't need to take sides within the trans community, we just have to fight to make sure girls and women stay safe by fighting for sex segregated spaces.

merrymouse trans is someone who's gender identity does not match their biological sex.

The confusion is between the terms 'gender identity' and the understanding of gender that prevails without the existence of trans people.

The term gender you are referring to I think, is the expectations and behaviours associated with being a certain gender, such as toxic stereotypes etc, which is something almost all trans people I am aware of also mostly resist.

Trans people express themselves in a way they are naturally drawn to, this is then judged and policed by others, as I said above, they are deemed either to be embracing stereotypes merely through their gender expression, or too masculine.

Gender expression, gender identity, gendered behaviours, etc etc
and the interplay between these are deeply complex.
Some people try to frame these terms as absolutes.

@Teacuphiccup

My original post was about information I saw posted elsewhere, and asking people here what they thought of it. It's detailed on the first post of this thread. Unless I've completely lost the plot.

At best the people who are claiming to support 'true' transexuals, are then dismissive of all other forms of expression including gender fluid, some elements of GNC expression etc, and in fact invested in keeping idea's of gender very binary, which I would think also goes against quite a lot of feminist theory.

Expression is great, the less 'gendered' things the better tbh. Men wearing dresses and makeup is great. Just, it does not make them women. Really not getting why its seen as controversial to say that transsexual people are very different to just gender non conforming.

In todays new labels, I am actually a-gender too. So i also fall udner the 'umbrella' as I do not have a gender dientity at all. I don;t 'feel like a woman' I just feel like me..and tbh I had a fair amount of body dysphoria as a teen too, along with being a 'tomboy' (if that words ok to say now ) and would have been a prime candidate for blockers and such. Especially given when I started going through puberty, and absolutely detested the amount of attention my tits drew from fully grown men. Actually at one stage got the silly idea of trying to cut them off..I still have the scars now.

crispy thank you for taking me at my word, it’s the truth.

No I don’t think there are some trans people worthy of support and some that aren’t.

I 100% support people to live their lives exactly as they want to, I happen to not think that surgery should be a requirement for getting a GRC, but I also think that people should be allowed to have it if it would make their lives better.
I genuinely want to live in a world where people can express themselves exactly as they want without having to be fearful of homophobic hate crime or discrimination.
However I don’t think that you can change sex and I think it’s absolutely vital that women are allowed to keep sex based protections and that ‘gender identity’ doesn’t come to trump sex.

Sex is not a spectrum. Gender may be but that’s irrelevant.
I’m not denying anyone the right to be themselves by saying women need sex based protections.

I will stand shoulder to shoulder with my trans sisters to help them build a third space or to fight discrimination or to break down stereotypes.
Transphobia exists, but it’s not in someone saying that women are oppressed because of their biology.

sunflowers sorry it’s me losing the plot.

@Teacuphiccup

crispy

Trans people express themselves in a way they are naturally drawn to, this is then judged and policed by others,

Well it might be judged and policed by some people but not by radical feminists. They only start to object when the trans person says ‘I like to express myself x way so I am no longer the sex I was born’

If a trans women passes, and has grc etc etc it seems some people will be happy to share a space, so basically a trans women that 'looks and behaves in a way expected of a cis woman is ok?
That trans person is then accused of embracing feminine stereotypes and is lambasted for that.

I think that is a fair discussion to have, and the discussion needs to start by acknowledging why women need sex segregated spaces, and why this causes problems for trans people (whatever trans means).

However, you can’t have a sensible discussion that starts from the premise that no discussion is needed because transwomen are women.

You say ‘gender identity’ I say ‘personality’

How can a gender identity exist without gender stereotypes? How would you know that your ‘gender identity’ was girl if you hadn’t been coached that girls like certain behaviours.

If a trans women passes, and has grc etc etc it seems some people will be happy to share a space, so basically a trans women that 'looks and behaves in a way expected of a cis woman is ok?
That trans person is then accused of embracing feminine stereotypes and is lambasted for that.

I agree with this actually.
Its why I think it should be sex segregated spaces not gender.

Going down the spectrum of gender identities is the door to Hello Humans! We are all different and perfect as we are, but to keep going as a species we need to respect biology, at present an increasing number of children (mostly girls in US) on the trans activism ideology are being sterelised as we speak. Expressing yourself as you like is not incompatible with the nature of things for mammals. You need an egg and an sperm to make it happen. Perhaps, the labs are busy trying to replace women and men reproductive systems and that's what happens when we are reinventing the wheel of I'm me and my circumstances.

crisp

Do you draw a distinction between sex and gender?

Perhaps, the labs are busy trying to replace women and men reproductive systems

Given the number of countries where people don’t have access to basic medicine, I think we are stuck with the consequences of having egg making or sperm making reproductive systems for a while yet!

I agree with this actually.
Its why I think it should be sex segregated spaces not gender.

Yes I agree too. But realistically if they pass that well who would know?

But the facts are allowing trans people to enter sex-segregated spaces as we have already discussed, as according to the equality act, causes no problems. And hasn't since 2010.

I hear people say all the time they don't have a gender, and they dress how they want etc ect, that is your gender expression, and by not following the gendered expectations, you have still exercised a gender expression. Even if it is counter to expectations.

This is still different entirely to gender identity.
Trans people are totally seperate to GNC people, but when trans people have a gender identity, their gender expression can still be anything else. And those trans people who have a female gender identity, if they choose to have a more GNC gender expression, they are targeted as not being true trans etc etc

And teacup I agree trans people are not judged for their gender expression by rad-fems at large, people like gloria steinham and catherine mckinnon are trans ally's.

But trans exclusionary rad-fems are a subset, that do judge trans people because of their gender expression.

But realistically if they pass that well who would know?

Would that really matter? I’m quite happy with the honour system we have now. I certainly wouldn’t want to inspect people or anything.

Its quite clear from this thread that transactivists are really not wanting the distinction between transsexual people and others who are gender non conforming in some way (or yes, just old fashioned transvestites) made. I wonder why that is. Most people hear 'trans' and think transsexual anyway. And 'self ID' is not about transsexual people either, though its framed that way, as transsexual people can already get a GRC under current rules. Taking any medicalization at all out of it, to the extent where not even a diagnosis of sex dysphoria is needed, is just utterly ridiculous and will render the GRC completely useless.

Cost is not a reason to remove all of the current rules. Because those on low incomes can get the cost supplemented anyway as its means tested. So what possible reason is there for removing the rest of it, unless it is specifically to allow any man to say he is a woman and gain womens rights? Its becoming clearer and clearer by the day to me now that this is just MRAs, and its a huge pushback against feminism.

I hear people say all the time they don't have a gender, and they dress how they want etc ect, that is your gender expression, and by not following the gendered expectations, you have still exercised a gender expression. Even if it is counter to expectations.

I don't have a gender identity, like many on here. Its not about 'gender expression'. Its this apparent inner sense of being male or female that I do not have, at all. I would not care if I woke up tomorrow and was male, it would freak me out a little to start with though, but I would get used to it.

You 'hear people say it all the time' eh? But you do not believe them, is that the case? Or you think they simply do not understand? I don't think l anyone should be telling others what their 'gender identity' is, and tbh this is part of the problem I have with transactivists applying 'cis' to everyone else and refusing to stop even when informed that they are not correct.

What on Earth is gender identity? You keep talking about it like it’s a fact that people have one. It’s not.

You’re saying everyone has one and I’m telling you I don’t, 100% I don’t have one.

I have the gender that is inflicted on me by society, I have my sex and then I have a personality. The end.

Gender identity is a feeling, a subjective feeling and we can’t legislate on feelings.

Yes trans people have been using women’s spaces without an issue, why are you wanting to change something that’s working? Why open the gates for problems?

Trans people are totally seperate to GNC people

How? Do they all have dysphoria?

I would just like to say thank you to crispy btw for staying and debating this.

I accept that there is a limit to how much you can control sex segregated spaces, (and personally would be happier with more better designed unisex spaces, particularly when caring for somebody of the opposite sex).

However, if you are claiming that the thing that defines women is their shared female gender identity you have to be able to objectively explain what that is, otherwise the word female is meaningless.