Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

Oooooh that’s when you asked if Shon Faye still had a penis and I said I don’t think it was relevant to be discussing actual people genitals on Mumsnet.

Yeah I still stand by that.
Have you seen what mnhq have been posting? We can’t be going around discussing actual people’s genitals we’ll get the whole thing shut down.

@pinkcandy84 please don’t go without giving teacup a chance to respond. It would be a shame for both of you.

@pinklady84
I apologise if I upset you but maybe you aren’t aware of the climate that this is all being discussed in, mnhq are under tremendous pressure to stop us talking about this issue and speculation about an individuals genitals is the exact type of thing that will get the mnhq into trouble and pull the plug for the rest of us.

One of the concerns I had ten years ago was what I was told by sibling regarding clustering.

My sibling is part of a cluster, of which I have good knowledge to their background.

Now I don't know where they got the information re clustering from or how reputable in scientific research this is, but clustering does not suggest a purely genetic cause unless the instance of being trans is actually exceptionally high in the general population and groups can only come out together because their social circle allows for it.

If this is true then there will be some major implications somewhere down the line from sheer numbers.

The alternative is the social contagion angle. From a personal point of view from what I am aware of with my siblings cluster this is the one I lean towards. This is a bias but i'm at this point because of an absence of knowledge based on science which frankly I desperately need to ever be at peace over the issue.

This is why I am so troubled by resistance to research. Its so crucial to all, and the resistance only reinforced my lean towards social roots.

Bare in mind my experience is based on a group from older than ten years ago too, so before this was really on the radar of most.

If there is anyone with knowledge on this, its something id like to know, as ive never been able to find much which really was reputable in this area.

Can you explain more about what you mean by clustering (since it seems to mean something different to social contagion), Red?

red

I think you’re totally right that we need more research done about this. The more we understand what’s going on the better surely?

I think that social capital should not be underestimated too, do we see more trans people in groups of friends that have trans people in them already because they are drawn to each other? or because they feel accepted to express part of themselves that they couldn’t in another group of friends? Or because it’s something that is encouraged?
Do we see it more in socially conservative societies because you would lose social capital by being gay?
I think all of these things need to be looked at so we can treat it properly.

My mother is a social worker and she says she has never ever seen so many trans kids in her entire career, we NEED to know if this is because they were always there but are just able to come out now or if something else is going on.

@Jayceedove
Much as I am sure you find what I am describing to you about being transsexual as absurd.

Not at all, what you describe is how I've always understood it, and would absolutely support you. I've seen several very moving TV programmes about people transitioning, and it's a very painful difficult experience. No-one could help but be moved.

But when I see video of women being attacked by people who exude such a violent male energy, all those feelings of support disappear.

Not that I'm claiming to understand it or even agree with it, but what Jaycee describes is what I'd always assumed was the transsexual perspective. It's the no dysphoria and I'm a woman with a penis because I say so perspective that's new.

red

I have mentioned this before but a young adult i know is at the start of a full transition

They have been persuaded by a large group of their 'friends' online that everyone has had the surgery, its definitely the right thing to do and they are all in their early 20's

I think that surgery and presenting as a woman may be the right thing to do in some cases and have no problem supporting the family through this very difficult time

I think most of their 'friends' are lying to them and i dont know why...this person is incredibly vulnerable and has been for some years now

Do you mean that you think the friends are lying about having had surgery?

we NEED to know if this is because they were always there but are just able to come out now or if something else is going on.

Absolutely. And this work needs to be done before passing legislation with such potential for harm. How has this ended up being regarding as 'hateful' and 'transphobic'?

flowers

No idea, it’s so twisted.

Good morning all. Forgive if this has already been brought up - we generally treat (Not in the medical sense) all people who are or wish to be trans as the same. All one group. Whereas they are quite different. The confused 10 year old, the long-established like Jaycee, the AGP, the perverts who we fear will take advantage of the proposed amendments to the Act and, God help us, the aggressive misogynists who want to break through the cotton ceiling. I think if we separate out these strands & organise around them, it will be less difficult to fight the proposals.

angry

They are online

He has never seen them, never met them

But they are all early twenties and have had full surgery

I just don't believe that...I believe that they could all be older in their 30's and 40's and have had full surgery

Or there are one or two of them in their 20's who have had full surgery and the rest and in the process

I could even believe that they are all from different countries and are that age

But not 15/20 of them, all 19-23, all of them British and all of whom have had full surgery

So some of them must be lying about at least one aspect

But not 15/20 of them, all 19-23, all of them British and all of whom have had full surgery

Someone on here said that UK figures are that about 150 people have surgery in the UK every year.

Well if 20 year olds are a all being given penile surgery then I absolutely stand corrected

That seems unlikely to say the least, that this one young person would have happened upon a group in which so many rather young people from one relatively small country had already completed all the surgery. I guess the question of why they'd lie is key there. Just showing off? Trying to establish credibility?

I don't know how parents cope with the anxiety of how unsafe the internet can be just because how do you ever really know that the person you're talking to is who they say they are? Not such a big deal if you're just discussing Dr Who episodes, or gardening tips, but suddenly a big scary thing when they're recommending medical treatment.

Crispy link to a source where endocrinologists state gender has a biological link is an echo chamber by misrepresenting research such the twins study already mentioned.

The article references are all from same journal, which is quite limited for a research paper.

Endocrinologists saying hormone treatment is the best care is like cosmetic industry selling products to make us look younger. Playing to their own market.

Here is a different take on transgender ideology inflicted on children by an endocrinologist.
t.co/fRJkVh3AiS?amp=1

The problem with Teacuphiccup's assumption is that it assumes that the people running the gender dysphoria clinics are objective and that when the person with gender dysphoria is counselled the disadvantages of surgery and hormones and the possibility of continuing in their body and identifying as their sex and just rejecting societies stereotypes of what it means to be a man are increasingly unable to be discussed as such views are labeled transphobic. 20 years ago all this stuff was discussed, these days it often isn't.

2rebecca
What’s my assumption?

angry

As i said, happy to believe they have all had the surgery and they are all fully recovered with no problems...but not in their very early 20's

I didnt realise that it was that easy to do

I have noticed in this thread, that not a single person has replied to me in good faith, almost everything I have stated, which is the evidence led position of experts actually involved in treatment, is labelled as wrong and derided by people on a forum who simply do not have any real experience in these matters, but lots of contradictory opinions.
Comparing Gender dysphoria to anorexia is always a sign someone is desperate to conflate and undermine gender identity, despite the vast majority of experts in both clearly stating time and again, they are not in the slightest bit comparable.

Propaganda is a real problem in this day and age, and it is very evident in the replies here, where almost everything is respun to fit the non-affirmation narrative.

What I have seen so far in this thread is quite desperate grasping at straws, and breaking things down into vague unfalsifiable arguments, non-sequitur kung-fu or etymology based word games, to preserve a world view thats seems entrenched on mumsnet, at least those who have taken part in this thread.

In the wider arena of policy making it is very much evidence led, evidence that is accepted and not mocked by those who refuse to accept any experience different to their own understanding.

The endless replies that show a deep misunderstanding of the scope of a GRC, the equality act, and trans lived experiences, isn't surprising, but illustrative of the propaganda at work.

The understanding of these laws prevalent on here, is the polar opposite of the policy makers, and falls exactly into line with the anti-trans propaganda sites, who almost always have a paypal button for donations. Keep em scared' keep em uninformed,keep em donating hey?

The fact that trans people have a full understanding of these laws, as a necessity to navigate public life, and have been using female facilities on a self id basis since 2010 (a grc is not required to use the facilities that match a trans persons identity) with no uptick in problems for anyone, is totally brushed off, in a continued attempt to either smear trans people, and deny gender identity.

And not to mention the cherry picking of studies from days gone by when the understanding was less than it is today, such as Blanchard, a disordered premise written when gender identity was considered a disorder, and no different to the tripe written in the past about gay and lesbian people who were considered disordered at one time.
And like Zucker who sometimes blamed single mothers for their childs identity, these two misogynistic charlatans are upheld as shining lights by transphobes.

Trans people have always existed, trans rights have moved forward, and will continue to go in one direction, because of evidence. Evidence not accepted by the majority of people on here clearly, but robust evidence all the same.

Having watched someone close to me go through a full mastectomy, the recovery isn't exactly the up and playing tennis the next weekend kind of deal.

If it's within the NHS endocrinologists have no personal pecuniary interest in encouraging hormone treatment, they will have more than enough patients. It's more that the clinicians interesting in working with transgender people have a pro-trans viewpoint to start with and tend to believe people can be born in the wrong bodies and hormones, surgery and a pronoun change can make it all better.

crispbuttyfan

Can you tell me what your relationship is with the trans community?

I am transsexual. Got a GRC, had surgery. I have concerns over self ID.

Are you transsexual?