Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

how do gender critical parents cover the topics of biological sex and gender stereotypes with their primary school aged dc?

The traditional, "there's no such thing as 'boy' things and 'girl' things, things are things, colours are colours and clothes are clothes - you can like whatever you want" advice.

I think there's too much discussion around 'gender' with children. Kids don't give a fuck about it, they just want to play with their mates and get their clothes dirty. Teach them they can do what they want without it making them anything different and leave the rest to them.

And figuring out their sexuality is what puberty is for, you can't do it for them. Too many people try.

My children understand:
"There is no such thing as a girl brain or a boy brain"
"There are two types of body and there are NOT two types of brain, there are billions of unique brains"
"Female and male bodies look different, have different parts and do different things - women can make babies"
"Women have always been treated worse than men (voting rights, vawg, child marriage etc) and still are - this is wrong, this is sexism"
You have the right to privacy away from the opposite sex when you're undressed.
You can do and achieve whatever you want and you should ignore the silly rules that shouldn't be attached to your sex.
"You only get one body, it is perfect, and brilliant and never wrong. Take care of it and don't waste your life wishing it was different" - this last one is referencing body weight and image and is mostly for my tween daughter who I am trying to fortify against the onslaught of body hatred that girls face in their teens. The message applies in other circumstances obviously.

pickles

My point isn’t that we shouldn’t allow people to transition, I think that would be barbaric.
My point is that just because there might be physical reasons why somebody develops a mental illness doesn’t mean that what they are experiencing is physical fact. I was using anorexia as another example of something where you might be able to look at someone’s physical make up and say ‘this person is at risk of anorexia’.
Just because you might be able to look at someone’s physical make up and say ‘this person is at risk of gender dysphoria’ doesn’t mean they have a woman’s brain trapped in a mans body or vice versa.
Anorexia and gender dysphoria are different things we will need to treat the people who develop them differently and outweigh the risks and benefits for all treatments.

flowersonthepiano great post at 00.27.

It's the obligation implied in terms of what members of the general public are expected to do in regards to the person with anorexia versus dysphoria that's the interesting part, I think. Even if doctors thought that it would help anorexics to have other people agree with them that they need to lose weight I can't imagine a scenario in which fines for those who don't would be being considered, like in New York for misgendering. It's a question of what's expected of the rest of society when a person's sense of themselves isn't lining up with what other people perceive.

Well yes angry, anorexia is very much perceived as a ‘silly little girls’ illness.

I don’t believe for a second that if his only happened one way round and it was only trans men that existed that we would be having any of these conversations.

Teacuphiccup

I understand what you mean about it seeming barbaric to give someone surgery based on a false belief. In the end though, I trust that clinicians don't do this lightly, or haven't until recently, and that there is evidence it can help people with a life-threatening condition. Hence the drawn out process of having to be evaluated and go through psychiatric tests etc.

Self-id has the potential to threaten this. The lobbying for it also suggests those doing the lobbying don't have gender dysphoria in the way jaycee describes it.

Which is always rage inducing given that it's one of the most deadly forms of mental illness.

Why thank you LangCleg

flowers

I understand what you mean about it seeming barbaric to give someone surgery based on a false belief.

That’s the opposite of what I said.
I said it was barbaric NOT to allow someone to transition.

One question about self-id that I've never seen adequately addressed is that if it goes through and the idea that no medical transition is required to be trans, then what does that mean in terms of transition related medical stuff being free on the NHS, or covered by insurance in the US and similar economies? Right now the trend is for increased coverage, but if self-id is enough and it's fine for example to be a woman with a penis and a full beard then logically why should the medical stuff be covered? Seems like that could just as easily go the other way and be used as a reason to stop covering procedures.

What adults do with their bodies is of no concern to me, people only get one life and they should be allowed to do what makes them happy as long as they’ve had psychiatric evaluation that this life altering non reversible operation is indeed the best thing.

kittens
Well yes I think this is a worry and I think it’s what the Tories are after.

My point is that the interests of transsexuals and the no dysphoria having, no medical transition desired group do not align in terms of what they want from the medical system, and that's an excellent reason for transsexuals to separate themselves from the other group.

Sorry teacup! Need more coffee

Yeah, with the Tories my first thought is usually how are they planning to use whatever they're currently suggesting as a cost cutting measure.

I can’t see how current proposals will benefit people with dysphoria at all.

I can’t see how current proposals will benefit people with dysphoria at all.

Me neither. It's regressive and dangerous.

A flouncer. Stop educating yourself because someone was a bit snappy?
Your loss I suppose. ...

My point is that the interests of transsexuals and the no dysphoria having, no medical transition desired group do not align in terms of what they want from the medical system, and that's an excellent reason for transsexuals to separate themselves from the other group.

I so agree with this

My point is that the interests of transsexuals and the no dysphoria having, no medical transition desired group do not align in terms of what they want from the medical system, and that's an excellent reason for transsexuals to separate themselves from the other group.

I think it's becoming more and more obvious that there are myriad such reasons. I posted something about crime on another thread yesterday. I really hope we see this happen.

Me? What? When did I do that? Can you link when that happened please?

I wasn't kidding when I said to JayCee in another thread that this is something transsexuals should do for their own sake as well as so as not to be expecting women to do all the lobbying and activist work for them. It will be taken more seriously coming from them than from "TERFs", and frankly it's also smart arse-covering in case there's a backlash. If and when that happens I at least want it to be very clear that I was on the not giving potentially dangerous drugs to kids team.