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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Trans unpeak moment

999 replies

Sunflowersforever · 05/04/2018 02:29

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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yetanothertranswoman · 08/04/2018 11:11

I didnt realise that it was that easy to do

Getting surgery is a long, drawn out process - as it should be.

Ereshkigal · 08/04/2018 11:12

I see you have posted that question several times and it is still to be answered.

LangCleg · 08/04/2018 11:12

I don't know how parents cope with the anxiety of how unsafe the internet can be just because how do you ever really know that the person you're talking to is who they say they are? Not such a big deal if you're just discussing Dr Who episodes, or gardening tips, but suddenly a big scary thing when they're recommending medical treatment.

Yes. This is all horribly concerning. I read a Twitter thread earlier about YouTube transition videos popular with tweens that come with lotteries to win binders (and tips on how to hide the deliveries from parents).

Where is CEOP in all this? And I realise those in their early twenties don't come under the CEOP remit at present but surely it could be extended to embrace, say, under 25s who are vulnerable persons?

I don't think it even matters whether you are pro or anti youth transition - this type of irresponsible and potentially nefarious online activity surrounding vulnerable young people throws up so many red flags that it desperately needs an institutional response.

Ereshkigal · 08/04/2018 11:13

In the wider arena of policy making it is very much evidence led, evidence that is accepted and not mocked by those who refuse to accept any experience different to their own understanding.

The evidence by which it is led is flawed. And only presents one side.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 08/04/2018 11:19

Thing is, crisp there have been times in the past where interventions such as lobotomies for depressed people and electric shock 'therapy' for homosexual people have been mainstream thought and uncritical articles about them have been published in scientific journals.

The medical establishment is only trustworthy to the extent that it is genuinely evidence-based. This is why interrogating the quality of the evidence is extremely important.

crispbuttyfan · 08/04/2018 11:26

Tallulah, to compare trans care to lobotomies is the kind of silly argument I am talking about. As If we don't have decades of studies and understanding.

And it is actually the comparable quackery that some transphobes push forward as a better explanation such as blanchard etc.

This is not a good-faith or open minded position.

Lobotomies are not done anymore because they didn't work, and were inhumane, and based on a very flawed misunderstanding.

It is actually a similar flawed misunderstanding of trans people that is being pushed forward in some of these posts, affirmation for both lesbian/gay and trans people, is the treatment that is correct.

yetanothertranswoman · 08/04/2018 11:30

crispbuttyfan

Seriously - it's not a hard question. Are people on here debating with a trans person or a trans ally?

As someone who is trans and is in this debate, it's useful to know 'what personal experience you bring to the table'

Ereshkigal · 08/04/2018 11:31

And it is actually the comparable quackery that some transphobes push forward as a better explanation such as blanchard etc.

Why is Blanchards typology "quackery"? Just because transactivists don't care for it? Please back up your opinion with reason.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 08/04/2018 11:31

Lobotomies are not done anymore because they didn't work, and were inhumane, and based on a very flawed misunderstanding

Yes.

But they were accepted for a time despite these rather catastrophic disadvantages because they were trendy and based on an excitingly cutting-edge (although emerging and poorly-understood) new scientific approach and they aimed to alleviate great distress and they had the blessing of (parts of) the scientific establishment.

These attributes are not a good enough reason to suspend our critical faculties.

CharlieParley · 08/04/2018 11:39

@Rufustherenegadereindeer1

Quite aside the fact that many people's internet persona bears no resemblance to their real one, if you read the stories of detransitioners, it seems the peer pressure is enormous. Not just the pressure to check your privilege, to always get everyone's names and pronouns and frequently shifting exact gender identities right, but to never disagree or dissent.

It's a surprisingly hostile environment - and having now read some such tumblr sites (I found them well before becoming gender critical), it's almost cult like in its dependency and interdependency aspects. They need each others validation, constantly, but it isn't enough. When the leave this bubble and are confronted with outsiders, it's stressful and upsetting because outsiders do not, cannot understand.

A lot of them are very vulnerable young people who really do feel under attack. When I heard one of them wail, plaintively, that we really do wish to kill them, I've never wished more that one could reach through the ether and just give that young person a hug and let them know that it isn't true and that their parents (which is really who most of them are in conflict with) just want them to get better.

Would some of them lie about having had surgery? That kind of behaviour, especially online, is not unique to this issue, so I don't doubt it. The waiting list for SRS in the UK only has about 120 odd people on it and you cannot get it without years of careful medical transitioning and therapy. That it's only 120+ doesn't mean they work their way through them quickly btw. It's a sign of how rare transsexualism is.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 08/04/2018 11:44

Getting surgery is a long, drawn out process - as it should be

Not what he is being told by these people

But i think we differ on this subject and i dont want to argue Smile

I am honestly worried and i know from my childrens online activities that people on the internet are not necessarily what they say they are

AngryAttackKittens · 08/04/2018 11:49

Isn't genital surgery also far less common in TIFs because it's not very sophisticated and prone to high rates of complications?

Teacuphiccup · 08/04/2018 11:49

crispbutty

I don’t think anyone is responding to you in bad faith, we just don’t agree with you.

You seem to think that we have no skin in the game or that we don’t work with, have family who are or are trans people ourselves. This is untrue.

I brought anorexia up not as an exact corrolation but as an example to show that the evidence in the Endocrine report is not that being trapped in the wrong body is real but that gender dysphoria is real, which I’ve never seen anyone deny.

Innate gender identity has not been proven, it is not a medical fact that people are born with a gender identity (what does that even mean?) seperate from sex, social conditioning or personality. This is something that people have been trying to prove for years as it would suit the patriarchy down to a tee if women were innately more suitable to the gender roles inflicted on them.

AngryAttackKittens · 08/04/2018 11:56

Has crispbutty answered Yet's question yet? It's a fairly simple one.

merrymouse · 08/04/2018 11:59

I have noticed in this thread, that not a single person has replied to me in good faith, almost everything I have stated, which is the evidence led position of experts actually involved in treatment, is labelled as wrong and derided by people on a forum who simply do not have any real experience in these matters, but lots of contradictory opinions.

I don't think this is fair. You have presented an argument that there may be biological markers for gender dysphoria. What you haven't done is define what trans means, given the diverse people now under the trans umbrella, or what a marker for gender dysphoria has to do with any other wider group of people not suffering from gender dysphoria.

I'm not deriding your opinion. I'm just not following your logic and asking for clarification.

flowersonthepiano · 08/04/2018 12:02

"I have noticed in this thread, that not a single person has replied to me in good faith, almost everything I have stated, which is the evidence led position of experts actually involved in treatment, is labelled as wrong and derided by people on a forum who simply do not have any real experience in these matters, but lots of contradictory opinions."

@crispbuttyfan

I replied in good faith. Accepted and agreed with most of the evidence you linked to for gender dysphoria being biological.

My point is that gender is not sex, or as easy to determine as sex, and shouldn't be used interchangeably. Do you see?

jellyfrizz · 08/04/2018 12:08

crispbutty I don’t think anyone here is denying that there are people with genuine gender dysphoria. Whether the cause be genetic or social. What people are saying is that having gender dysphoria does not actually make you the opposite sex whatever it’s cause.

As far as I can see most people here would be delighted to see trans people’s rights moved forward but as trans rights; the right to be trans without fear or discrimination. To be a trans man or woman and be able to be proud of your journey - rather than claiming to be the opposite sex.

CharlieParley · 08/04/2018 12:12

@Crispybuttyfan

Blanchard's theory has been tested and verified through numerous other researchers with empirical evidence from thousands of transwomen, the most recent studies confirming his taxonomy and especially the existence of autogynephilia ARE FROM THIS DECADE.

Homosexual transsexuals and non-homosexual transsexuals are two distinct, mutually exclusive types who have different therapy and medical treatment needs. Denying the science - which in and of itself cannot be transphobic - is counterproductive, likely harmful to transsexuals and definitely not going to work here.

People suffering from AGP are as worthy of protection, of love, of acceptance and respect as any other person. They are not perverts, deviants or freaks. They deserve to be safe, free from discrimination and fully take part in society. Acknowledging the particular characteristics of their condition is not transphobic.

And the accusations against Zucker have been shown to be groundless, amongst other things through corrections made by the single mother and the male transsexual individual upon both whose statements much of the accusations rested.

As for your other claims that trans people know best - not true. Just this week two transsexuals with a GRC put out completely wrong information on how to get a GRC on the LibDem LGBT twitter account. They simply had no idea that since they got the GRC, the law had been amended and now no medical transition, let alone SRS, needs to have happened to qualify (you just need to have a treatment plan). But although their guidance could harm other transsexuals, no amount of people sending them screenshots with the actual law could move them to admit they were wrong.

And as far as policy makers are concerned. I have personally spoken with one who wrote and then obviously voted on a recent law in this area. They had neither knowledge of the actual government response to the self-id proposal, nor of the changes in the trans community, nor of the detrimental effect demedicalising gender dysphoria will have on those who suffer it.

They were horrified and referred me to another policy maker to take my concerns forward and asked to be kept up to date on the outcome. They did say that they rarely have time to truly immerse themselves in a subject they legislate in (and other mumsnetters experienced the same with other policy makers who also knew next to nothing about the details).

Not that I want a political discussion here on Brexit, but that issue is the best evidence we currently have of policy makers not having a clue sometimes on what the effect, the outcomes, all of the possible results of their policies can be. Theresa May recently admitted that now she had been made aware of the details of one particular aspect of Brexit, she realised that they had had zero idea of what it entailed and that their timetable was completely unrealistic.

So while some policy makers are undoubtedly experts on certain policy matters, policy makers on the whole make policy based on their political convictions and not their deep knowledge of an issue. And they simply cannot be experts on everything.

crispbuttyfan · 08/04/2018 12:15

Talulah, we have trans people who transitioned decades ago, and went onto have fulfilling lives due to treatment, this isn't new, this isn't a wait and see treatment, this is treatment that has run its course and given overwhelmingly positive results.

Ereshkigal not a single medical establishment worldwide has ever given a diagnosis of AGP. Nor uses it as an accepted premise.
It exists entirely in anti-trans discourse.
On the contrary the majority of modern studies point to gender identity having an innate component.

Whilst I understand older feminist theory, and class analysis has a different explanation of gender, noneof theories or understanding have ever been made with the input or acceptance of trans people and their lived experiences.

Teacuphiccup The belief of the endocrine society amongst many others, is in fact, that gender identity IS innate.
That doesnt mean gender stereotypes are inherent no one is saying that. But the accepted meaning of gender in gender critical discourse, I entirely agree with, however gender is not one thing, it is more likely to be a chain of nuanced experiences, containing an innate aspect, seemingly only apparent when there is incongruence.
As someone surrounded by many GNC women, and raised by a strong independent woman who has never owned a dress, I see clearly the effects of policing gender, and expectations...
That does not undermine the studies or the lived experiences of trans people, it simply means it is far more complex than some people are prepared to allow the subject and definition to be.

yetanothertranswoman who I am, has no effect on the realities of the discussion, and the facts.

Ereshkigal · 08/04/2018 12:19

On the contrary the majority of modern studies point to gender identity having an innate component.

No they don't. That's a huge reach.

crispbuttyfan · 08/04/2018 12:21

Charley parker, Find me a peer-reviewed acceptance of AGP written in the last 3 years and let me see it.
There are still people proposing studies on gay/lesbian people, there are still people pushing for conversion therapy for gay/lesbian people.

I know there are many people invested in anti lgbt studies, it does not mean they have the same merit as those that assert the opposite.

AGP and HSTS are not two distinct types at all, even blanchards study clearly dismissed all those that did not fit into his typology.

If you spent any time within the trans community, you would see the huge spectrums, and that no typology exists..... because it simply doesnt, there have been attempts to repeat blanchards findings with trans women, none have repeated his findings, because he relied on conflating and grouping together trans women, and cis- identified cross-dressers.

yetanothertranswoman · 08/04/2018 12:27

who I am, has no effect on the realities of the discussion, and the facts

It does when you are telling people about being trans.

They simply had no idea that since they got the GRC, the law had been amended and now no medical transition, let alone SRS, needs to have happened to qualify (you just need to have a treatment plan

To get a GRC, you need to fill this form in:

www.gov.uk/apply-gender-recognition-certificate

you’re 18 or over
you’ve been diagnosed with gender dysphoria (discomfort with your birth gender) - this is also called gender identity disorder or transsexualism
you’ve lived in your acquired gender for at least 2 years
you intend to live in your acquired gender for the rest of your life

Medical reports

For all application routes you must send a report that includes details of any treatment you’ve had to change your sexual characteristics, eg hormone treatment or surgery.

The report must be an original copy from a qualified medical professional, eg:

a doctor registered with the General Medical Council (GMC)
a psychologist registered with the Health and Care Professions Council
Read the list of gender dysphoria specialists to find out who can write this report for you. You can send a report from a registered medical professional not on this list if they can prove they work in gender dysphoria.

crispbuttyfan · 08/04/2018 12:28

Here is a long blog post about some findings to do with gender identity, it's informative, is not conclusive but also explains why that is.
However science isn't always absolutes, but sometimes a likelihood or probability after eliminating other possibilities is a good marker towards where the truth will be found...

Over time, science bends towards truth. Scientific inquiry isn’t without bias, the very questions we choose to seek answers to can reveal bias on the part of the researchers asking questions. The neat thing about science though is that over time, as we propose hypotheses, conduct experiments (or passively gather data) to test those hypotheses we get data that allows us to ask more informed / better questions, to conduct better research and to expand our learning over time.

The question details say:

I looking for a peer reviewed study that gives evidence that gender is independent of your “birth-sex”.

You won’t find it. The reason you won’t find it is because that’s not how research works. You won’t find a grand unified study that presents that specific conclusion.

What you will find are studies stacked on top of studies stacked on top of studies that build towards those statements. Here, let’s examine an example:

Hypothalamic Response to the Chemo-Signal Androstadienone in Gender Dysphoric Children and Adolescents

Sounds fascinating right? As article titles it’s right up there with Androgen Receptor Repeat Length Polymorphism Associated with Male-to-Female Transsexualism.

If you’re not into biology in a way that makes you want to dive into examining MRI data to critically examine the study methodology then you might be inclined to skim to the bottom of the study so you can read something a little more general audience understandable:

Gender dysphoria has been hypothesized to develop due to an altered sexual differentiation of the body and the brain during early development (30, 31). Here, we investigated a unique data set of individuals with GD at two different developmental stages, in order to determine whether they would respond to androstadienone in accordance with their natal sex, rather than their experienced gender. We found that both, adolescent girls and boys with GD showed hypothalamic activations that reflected their experienced gender. [1]

(Emphasis mine)

So… does the study say that gender is independent of natal sex? Well… no, because that would be a broad conclusion to be drawn from the experiment conducted. Instead we find a statement that the hypothalamus of adolescents with gender dysphoria responded to a stimulus (in this case, an odor) in a way that is consistent with their experienced gender rather than their natal sex.

That’s not a conclusive statement. It is, however, a puzzle piece. In that one puzzle piece we also find two foot notes. Let’s examine those foot notes.

The first foot note points to Sexual differentiation of the human brain in relation to gender identity and sexual orientation. Well, that sounds useful and maybe even a bit more approachable. Let’s look inside:

There is a vast array of factors that may lead to gender problems (Table I). Twin and family research has shown that genetic factors play a part (78,79). Rare chromosomal abnormalities may lead to transsexuality (80), and it was recently found that polymorphisms of the genes for ERα and ERβ, AR repeat length polymorphism, and polymorphisms in the aromatase or CYP17 gene also produced an increased risk (79,81,82).

Abnormal hormone levels during early development may play a role, as suggested by the high frequency of polycystic ovaries, oligomenorrhea and amenorrhea in female-to-male (FtM) transsexuals. This observation suggests early intrauterine exposure of the female fetus to abnormally high levels of testosterone (83). A recent study did not confirm a significantly increased prevalence of polycystic ovary syndrome. However, there was a significantly higher prevalence of hyperandrogynism in FtM transsexuals, also indicating the possible involvement of high testosterone levels in transsexuality (84). A girl with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), who has been exposed to extreme levels of testosterone in utero, will also have an increased chance becoming transsexual. Although the likelihood of transsexuality developing in such cases is 300-1000 greater than normal, the risk for transsexuality in CAH is still only 1-3% (85), whereas the probability of serious gender problems is 5.2% (86). The consensus is, therefore, that girls with CAH should be raised as girls, even when they are masculinized (24).

Epileptic women who were given phenobarbital or diphantoin during pregnancy also have an increased risk of giving birth to a transsexual child. Both these substances change the metabolism of the sex hormones and can act on the sexual differentiation of the child’s brain. In a group of 243 women who had been exposed to such substances during pregnancy, Dessens et al. (87) found three transsexual children and a few others with less radical gender problems; these are relatively high rates for such a rare condition. On the “DES sons” (diethylstilbestrol, an estrogen-like substance – see later) website they claim that transsexuality occurs in 35.5% and a gender problem in 14% of the DES cases (88,89). This is alarming, but needs, of course, to be confirmed in a formal study. There are no indications that postnatal social factors could be responsible for the occurrence of transsexuality (90). [2]

Holy tap dancing centipedes Batman, that’s a lot of footnotes. Thirteen of them! And that’s just in three paragraphs. The intrepid researcher might be well served by diving deeper to understand the studies that contributed to those paragraphs (by pure coincidence one of the other articles linked earlier is referenced in this block) so they can further understand the conclusions being drawn.

When I read research about transgender issues, I look carefully at the footnotes. Sometimes, after reading a paper and looking at the footnotes I stop and say “huh, given how heavily this relies on [Researcher X], I wonder why the paper doesn’t cite [Researcher Y], given that [Researcher Y] attempted to repeat [Researcher X]’s study with a larger and more diverse sample but failed to reproduce the results… that seems relevant.” Or I might read the foot notes, pull out a highlighter and say “I was aware of the research on AR and CYP17 but I wasn’t aware of the research on ERα and ERβ… I need to run these down later and add them to my reading list.”

See, science and research aren’t easy. It takes time and effort to gain proficiency in a research subject. If you were to chart the levels of expertise in research, you might come up with something like this:

Level 1: Familiar with research from popular media that references the research (Science Daily, The Advocate, etc.) At this level of expertise you’re relying on someone with greater subject matter expertise to tell you what the data says and to help you put it in context.
Level 2: Familiar with limited amounts of primary sources, mainly engages with primary sources for fact checking or to find support for presented arguments. This is what I’d jokingly refer to as the “I want to win arguments on the internet” level of expertise. People who seek out the research that supports their already held positions and cite the research as needed to support their statements. Don’t mistake this for subject matter expertise, it isn’t.
Level 3: Familiar with a significant amount of the published research. Reads the whole study. Capable of putting new data in the context of an existing body of research, evaluating the credibility of data and critically examining both methodology and conclusions. Call this your undergrad level of familiarity with a topic. The kind of thing you’d expect someone holding a Bachelor of Science in Gender and Development to be able to put together.
Level 4: Broad familiarity of existing research, capable of constructing literature reviews, meta-analysis of existing research, etc…
I think you see where this is going so we can stop there knowing full well that this goes on for a while. Let’s bring it back to the question at hand: Is there a scientific basis for transgender identity and further, is there a peer reviewed study that demonstrates it?

Without question there is reason to believe that transgender identity is rooted in biological phenomenon. Wait… that was a really weak statement for a sentence that started with “without a doubt.” But… that’s science for you, especially young science. It’s important for people to remember that research into trans identity is relatively young as a science. While John Money was publishing work proposing that sex and gender were separate things as far back as 1955, you don’t get the steam roller even starting to move with biologists until Zhou’s 1995 publication in Nature. [3] That was just a little over 20 years ago. Since then the research has been piling up. We’ve seen studies in genetics, in psychobiology, neurology, clinical psychology and a number of other disciplines. A majority of the literature moves us towards higher and higher confidence in the statement that transgender identity has a biological etiology.

As always, within the body of research, there are differing opinions. Not all research points in exactly the same direction. Some studies have been conducted only on a very small scale and have never been repeated. Some studies have been repeated but produced different results. I read a study the other day that was sort of tragic: It was published a year or two before some rather significant discoveries about generational differences in the trans population that made the study’s data set difficult to evaluate because it didn’t report data in a way you could sub slice by generation… the study pulled several years of data from a single gender clinic but was published years before significant issues in the clinical practices at that clinic were discovered, ultimately resulting in disciplinary action against the person responsible for the program. So… here we have a study, when it was written, it was a good study using methodology that seemed sound at the time. Now, however, it feels less compelling though not completely invalid. And that sort of thing is why hunt and peck research to argue on the internet shouldn’t be mistaken for expertise. You can find disagreement within the literature, but without genuine breadth and depth of understanding of the research, you can’t evaluate it and you can’t contextualize it.

Science is hard. The science we have on transgender identity bends in the direction that says being trans is something people are born with. It bends in the direction of saying that gender identity isn’t mutable and can’t be changed by post natal interventions. It bends in the direction of saying that gender affirming care is the absolute best way of clinically managing gender dysphoria. The evidence is mounting for all of these things.

But further research will be needed for a long time. I think it’s unlikely that we’ll come to the conclusion that the contemporary consensus around validating transgender identity was in error. I do think there are several places where we just don’t have the data or the research ability to say things like “if you put a person in a n MRI you can tell if they’re trans or not by looking at the results.” We’re not there and we may never get there. We may never be able to give someone a blood test to see if they have the “transgender gene.” But what we do have is a mountain of data that tells us that it’s worth looking for those things because we might be able to find them.

So is there a scientific basis for transgender identity? Best answer you get: There is a significant amount of scientific research that supports validating transgender identity. Make of that what you will.

Teacuphiccup · 08/04/2018 12:29

chipbuttie

So if gender identity is innate, what is it? And how does it differ from personality?
How can a ‘gender identity’ ever be free from gender stereotypes if the way we classify who is what gender is based on classifications of behaviour and feelings of people who exhibite that gender.
If we aren’t grouping people into genders based on behaviours that we imagine should be displayed by people of that gender then how do we say who belongs to what gender? What is the point of it if it’s not a classification, then it’s just another word for personality.

This is all getting very complicated when it really doesn’t have to be.
Let people be whoever they want to be if they are distressed by their body then let them modify it (if they are an adult and sane). Doesn’t mean they change sex though.

Ereshkigal · 08/04/2018 12:30

there have been attempts to repeat blanchards findings with trans women, none have repeated his findings,

I don't think that's true actually. Where studies have used and controlled for homo/heterosexuality. Heterosexual trans identified males have not had similarities with women. The majority of the studies are done on homosexual males.

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