Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

And for anyone who cares about that statement made by the Endocrine Society that crispybuttyfan linked to earlier in the thread as absolute evidence of an innate gender identity:

This cites as evidence previously refuted claims and unfortunately (or infuriatingly if you're intersex) once again conflates intersex conditions and gender dysporia (that's claims 1 and 3).

Claim 2:

identical twins (who share the exact same genetic background) are more likely to both experience transgender identity as compared to fraternal (non-identical) twins

References a 2012 twin study but ignores the largest ever transsexual twin study from 2013 which showed only 28 out of 74 identical twin pairs had both twins suffering from GD and thus disproved the claim that genetics or hormones in the womb cause transsexualism and supports the claim that various social and psychological factors play a role in forming gender identity.

Claim 4:

there are associations of certain brain scan or staining patterns with gender identity rather than external genitalia or chromosomes

Once again with the brain scans. We've recently had that discussion in another thread. What the scans show (in transsexuals) is that there is a difference in the body perception and self-image area in the brain of adult transsexuals who have been diagnosed with GD. Which proves neither a congenital condition nor causation but does support the diagnosis of GD.

What this sounds like is a form of body dysmorphic disorder, and if those who have it feel that altering their appearance will make them feel better then that's up to them (as adults, not as children). The key point though is that in no other form of body dysmorphic disorder does the recommended treatment include compelling other people to lie and say that they share the sufferer's view of themselves. Nobody suggests that the general public be required to agree with objectively emaciated anorexics that they're fat, or with people who feel like they should be missing a leg that they really ought to be (nor do we ask them to pretend that it's not there when it still is).

This is the key area where the clash between groups begins, in the demand that others not only recognize an entirely subjective experience that by its very nature isn't visible to them but also pretend that they agree that the person having that experience is correct in their perception of how things should be and the person observing is wrong.

Charlie. I have read the brain scan data and the link to the region that controls body perception and concur with your interpretation.

Not seen the twin study but from your summary I would have thought 28 out of 74 - more than a third - showing GD in both twins was a little significant given the actual much lower percentage within society.

If we do not understand the physical mechanism that might occur and if we accept that social factors and individual accommodation of any incongruity will depend to some extent on upbringing I would not expect a 100% level where both twins were GD. But would have regarded 35% versus 1% in the general population as quite a high level in a sample of twins.

Though without reading it I might be missing something here.

@Jayceedove

Thank you for sharing this. Even though I've read something similar before, it was nowhere near as illustrative or accessible. This is what I understood it to mean when someone said they were trans in the past.

And while I can't really imagine that state of being, I do understand the journey is long and filled with all kinds of pain, pysical, emotional, social but you're aiming for an inner peace that will reconcile your two halves - mind and body - as best as medicine can today. And I admire you for having the strength and courage to see this through

It struck me as I watched a Jazz Jennings clip today - the utter revulsion with which she greeted the suggestion to use testosterone cream to grow her genitals to make her preferred type of SRS possible. Contrasted that with the pride the non-op non-med transwomen feel for their male genitals (even if they call it a female penis). And they dominate the public discourse right now.

Everyone else: Sorry for cluttering the thread

@Charley parker, it never fails to happen, that when someone on a forum or twitter etc encounters the consensus of the endocrine society, there is no shortage of people who think they can reinterpret the statement, and somehow try to raise their opinion as though it has more merit that that of the endocrine society.

The endocrine society is one of the oldest an biggest fellowships in the world, to reach a consensus and release a policy statement is not done lightly.

They have millions of man hours and decades of research to form an opinion on the intricacies of how hormones play a role in biology and unravelling the complexity.

They have merely released a statement that in no way reflects anything like the depth of experienced opinion it is based on.

This is not news to trans people, trans people have been saying the same things forever, however if some people must insist on a cis opinion, the endocrine society are world class experts.

But as I say, there are no shortage of people who think they can decide what information is relevant, and how the conclusions are wrong....

There's a reference to removing female clothing in the chorus. The song refers to looking at yourself in a mirror and being turned on by your own appearance"

If you're turned on by removing stereotypically female clothing as a female, that is one thing. If you're a male, it's something else. Why is that difficult?

I don't give a fuck what the selectively funded, interest conflicted and biased endocrine society say. Bite me.

@Jayceedove I am not sure either but we'd need a study of twin pairs separated at birth to find out if genetics/hormones were more in play than social/psychological factors.

The authors of this study seem to suggest genetics more than upbringing, but I can't access the full study. AFAIK several other twin studies where only one developed GD showed that they experienced different post natal traumas. Some thing or things must be causing GD and these studies suggested it's quite a lot of things. I guess until we know, we can only go by the existing research and our own (probably flawed in my case) interpretation.

Here's the link to the abstract (which like me gets the numbers wrong - it's 21 pairs or 28% who are concordant not the 33% my figure of 28 pairs suggested or the 20% of the abstract)

Jayceedove what you are saying is that TRAs have cognitive dissonance whilst you, since you are aware of the essential contradictions of your condition, and are able to see the absurdity of the situation rather than being denial of it and are you are unlike TRAs who are deliberately unwilling to face anything which might expose that fundamental essence of cognitive dissonance for what it is.

It is the denial of the reality of your absurdity which makes you distinctively different?

(Eyes go cross eyed trying to process)

I found the twin study via this statement on GD in children by the American College of Pediatrics.

@yetanothertranswoman I love faulty towers! Which one (my favourite is the rat one).

But crispbutty, from what you have said, the endocrine society claim to have found a common attribute in trans women that they relate to feelings of gender identity.

You haven’t explained how this makes somebody with a male reproductive system female.

@crispybuttyfan

no actually ROFL

There's not a chance in hell I would ever accede to your claim to the absolute knowledge and practically godhood of the Endocrinologist Society. THEY MADE FALSE STATEMENTS IN SUPPORT OF THEIR POSITION. What you're demanding - unquestioning belief - that's not science, that's religion. I'm a third generation atheist. I don't do religion.

And any society that willfully ignores that intersex societies have demanded that their completely different medical issue related to the body is not used to support another medical issue related to the mind is disreputable in my book. They have explained - at length - how harmful this is to intersex people.

So there might be some genetic and hormonal factors in play to why you might develop gender dysphoria, that doesn’t mean that all trans women have female brains and therefore are women.
Otherwise we could just all have a hormone check and brain scan to determine our sex and then go home.
Doesn’t work that way though does it? Thats not how babies are made.

The gendered brain theory is bullshit, it’s been proven again and again that there is just as much variation within the sexes as between them.

It’s also very difficult to measure brains as they are so elastic due to use. Black cab drivers have an enlarged part of the brain which stores maps, that doesn’t mean people with that enlarged part of the brain become black cab drivers.

@SusanBunch I see you have left and also said "but I do feel a bit targeted" I sincerely hope you do not feel tarhetted by Mr since I asked you one question. If you, i apologise because all I want is discussion, not to make anyone feel bad.

You'be left, you say, which is fine, but in answer to your reply to me.... your definition of transphobia. Thanks for giving it.

I've been out of internet range all day so catching up. I would agree with a lot of what you say.

I really do not want to talk about the shooter but I think you have misread this. I don't think people wanted her to be trans or felt that trans people committed more crime! A very large amount of violent crime and especially mass shootings are committed by males. So I think there was speculation when the person was reported as female. That is all. I believe it was shut down.

Crimes by males are reported as crimes by women, some of the time. As another poster proved.

Most if not all posters here do believe in gender dysphoria! I have relatives and friends, and friends relatives who have it.

I think that lots of harmful things can be said but we are not just discussing words or opinions. We are talking about law, which will affect women and girls. So why not come back and discuss that?

@crispbuttyfan
I have no issue with the statement from the endocrinology society.
I accept that some people have a sense of gender identify and in some cases this differs from the biological sex.

This does not change their sex.

On the Swedish study. I am not saying I don't believe the author, just that I am a scientist and I like to see the data for myself. There is clearly a lack of publications on that topic.

I don't entirely trust the data on trans offenders in UK prisons. I read somewhere that the reason so many are held in sex offender units is for their own safety. I am not claiming that as fact, just possibility.

The twin studies are good evidence for a genetic effect. The whole point of comparing monozygotic (identical) twins and dizygotic (non-identical) is to control for the effects of shared environment.

All of the above supports a biological cause for gender dysphoria.

None of it shows you can change your sex.

Very few trans people are diagnosed with gender dysphoria, and none of the evidence is relevant to them.

I am still worried about lack of definition of trans (particularly under a self-id system) and I still cannot see any justification for redefinition of the word woman.

@Jayceedove thank you. it is pretty much exactly as I imagined it. But I did not want to say because I am not a transsexual and it is not my experience.

There’s studies that show that the risk of developing body dysphoria that result in eating disorders is affected by genetics and hormones too, here one www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3010958/

Should we stop treating these as physcogical too?

I think that we run the risk of failing people with gender dysphoria by not being able to offer them appropriate treatment.
This includes surgeries and hormones for adults but it also includes counselling for those that need it.

I don’t think that gender non conformity is a madness, of course it’s not. Gender dysphoria is not the same as gender non conformity though and we need to be clearer about who we are talking about.
If they don’t have gender dysphoria and in fact are just gender non conforming then in what way are is someone trans? What’s their claim to womanhood?

I think the fact that gender clinics are diagnosing children with depression as transgender is a clear indication that the medical community is failing people with and without dysphoria.

Reading my last statement i realise it sounded like I was saying people with gender dysphoria are mad, I’m not.
I think it’s a complicated distressing state rather than a madness (I just shouldn’t have used the word madness at all because it’s such a horrible word, sorry).

Anorexia definitely seems to have a genetic component. We don't treat if by affirming the belief that the person really should lose 50 pounds and urging everyone around them to agree that they're fatter than they actually are.

Jaycee, you ended your last post saying it sounded bonkers. It doesn't, honestly! It sounds exactly like we have all thought transsexual is. Distressing, serious, and to be treated seriously in whatever way helps.

The transgender men who delight in their lady penis, however....

The difference with anorexia, though, is that pandering to the anorexia risks the probably death of the sufferer.

Allowing sexual dysphoria sufferers to transition helps them find a long term stasis, IYSWIM.

Jayceedove That's a brilliant post. I am as gender critical and fed up with the whole narcissistic seeming trans gender discussion. Your post is honest, mature and educated thank you for sharing your views .

It's this honesty and self reflection i miss with the trans gender agenda. It's not a discussion about gender and identity, it's a 'do as we say approach' toward women and extremely aggressive in it's approach, i object to this.

Maybe I should start a different thread but how do gender critical parents cover the topics of biological sex and gender stereotypes with their primary school aged dc?