Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

don't know what to tell you, Celia has clearly stated after studying that she regards trans women as no risk to women.

That's nice. But not a peer reviewed conclusion.

If fairplay for women is all about womens rights and NOT anti-trans propaganda site, how come all it reccomends are people who are very vocally anti-trans, and simply reading their online output you can see clear insulting transphobia on a daily basis, some more reasonable sounding than others.

Where are the womens rights groups? Where are the groups that fight for more DV shelters and refuge's? Where are the groups campaigning for free sanitary towels for women in poverty, or any other number of womens causes?
It is entirely aimed at stigmatising trans women, and is notable for its lack of efforts to advance womens rights and interests in any way.
See attached.

Even alex jones on info-wars has millions of people who believe it and would argue he is right all day and night, they are both still propaganda sites.

gender idenity has biological underpinnings, innate

But where does that leave all the people who don’t have any feelings of gender identity? How do you decide that your feelings of gender identity make you like women, and not like other men who also have the same feelings? I’m not denying anybody’s identity or their right to present and behave in the way they feel most comfortable. I just don’t understand how you classify gender identity as male or female or what purpose it serves.

Thereby being yet another study by actual world class experts, that disputes Blanchards AGP quackery.

You are aware of the Stonewall definition of transgender that includes cross dressers? And the fact that transvestic fetishism is in the DSM5? Please explain why Blanchard is wrong.

Celia has clearly stated after studying that she regards trans women as no risk to women.

Great. Can she explain how you clearly define a self selecting group?

Some of the reasoning could be claimed that if there was no difference between what cis men feel and what trans women feel how is their obvious sense of self entirely different?
Wouldn't that mean more than 1% would identify as trans, if it was all the same?

Its extremely difficult to find common ground of understanding, between people who can't comprehend it, and those who can't explain it.

Many women say they don't feel female and without referring to genitalia cannot explain being what a women is, it's not a 'feeling'... but at the same time ask trans women to explain it, something some cis women say they can't do themselves.

so when trans women are asked to explain something so abstract and difficult given very limiting language, sometimes a trans women, may use clumsy clunky language, in a very basic attempt to convey an aspect of it, this is usually taken in bad faith and used as a gotcha.

Its catch 22, but when people want to learn about a minority, you have to ask and accept what they tell you at face value, it is how we always gain a greater understanding of any minority, by their own ansers and experiences.

But trans women are never asked or listened to, quite often trans women are constantly TOLD what they actually are, in bad faith.

I love a crisp sandwich, me. But I don't believe everything that other people who like crisp sandwiches say. There's no approved crisp sandwich appreciater position.

but if people just actually stood back, and said, 'what if they actually are women'? In the ways that are most important in who we are and our identities, everything makes a lot more sense

I have though, and I decided that everything that makes me a woman in a sense that impacts my identity is either biological or because of childhood socialization. Neither of which I share with trans women, but all of which I do share with other people born female. If I'd been born with a penis and testicles rather than a vagina and ovaries I'm sure I'd still have had some tendencies in terms of personality that come baked in, and I'd also have had the same exposure to various cultures, and the same parents, but the difference in embodiment and the way that impacts how other people treat a child would have influenced me in all kinds of ways, and I'd be a different person now as a result. So my sense of identity would be different.

Talking to trans women has only reinforced this sense that on that basic level of how do you see yourself and how do you relate to the world we're not part of the same group at all. We may get along, and I may like them, but that sense of shared experience that I have with other women all over the world? Not there at all. Our bodies shape who we are because they shape who other people think we are and thus how they relate to us.

Ereshkigal transvestic fetishism is in the dsm5 that is true, as I said earlier in this thread, that refers to cis men.
Gender dysphoria is unconnected, and is under an entirely different section of the dsm5... some people like to conflate the two things, or draw comparisons, they are very definitely different things.

Blanchard is wrong because he cherry picked his results and is based on the majority of trans people having a transient or self inflicted identity disorder.

And in the meantime we have growing evidence that gender identity is innate, from birth, thereby dismissing such transient quackery that Blanchards original typology relied on.

crispbuttyfan

I'll try again - are you trans?

Or are you speaking for trans people like me?

and without referring to genitalia cannot explain being what a women is, it's not a 'feeling'

Yes, but that 'without referring to genitalia' - or I'd put it broader, 'without referring to biology' - is the whole point here. I am a woman because of my biology. I can't explain what being a woman is without referring to my biology, because my biology is what makes me a woman. I don't have a female soul, or a female brain, or a female personality, or some deep inherent affinity with the gender role attached to being female - I have a female body.

Society attaches various expectations to that female body, and would like to put my abilities, preferences, everything else, in a little box labelled 'woman' accordingly. But it's a fairly basic cornerstone of feminism that the little box of gender expectations itself is harmful and restrictive. I'm still a woman even though I don't wear makeup and heels and dresses and jewellery. I am not 'less' of a woman for not conforming to those gender roles, because all I need to do to be a woman is to be an adult human female. All else is the caste system of gender, which should be abolished.

Many women say they don't feel female and without referring to genitalia cannot explain being what a women is, it's not a 'feeling'... but at the same time ask trans women to explain it, something some cis women say they can't do themselves.

What you're saying is that the fact that women can't explain what being a woman is other than the fact that they are one biologically, means that the fact that a man can't describe what a woman is isn't relevant to who actually is a woman.

Many women say they don't feel female and without referring to genitalia cannot explain being what a women is, it's not a 'feeling'... but at the same time ask trans women to explain it, something some cis women say they can't do themselves.

Adult human female is the definition of woman. See! That was easy.
What we cannot do is define woman in such a way that it includes males who suffer the delusional disorder that if they feel they fail as men they must be women.
Treating a gender identity disorder with affirmation, drugs, and surgery has proven to be ineffective and cruel and it needs to stop.

Ereshkigal transvestic fetishism is in the dsm5 that is true, as I said earlier in this thread, that refers to cis men.
Gender dysphoria is unconnected, and is under an entirely different section of the dsm5... some people like to conflate the two things, or draw comparisons, they are very definitely different things.

So for the purpose of us understanding the difference, could you pick a known transactivist as an example. Which of them do you think is a transvestic fetishist as per the DSM5?

Speaking for myself, I'm perfectly ready to believe that some people have an innate sense of gender identity. I just don't believe that that determines their sex.

Italic fail, sorry @crispbuttyfan

And in the meantime we have growing evidence that gender identity is innate, from birth...

No, we don't, and it is claims like this that are a red warning flag.

@crispbuttyfan
Many women say they don't feel female and without referring to genitalia cannot explain being what a women is, it's not a 'feeling'... but at the same time ask trans women to explain it, something some cis women say they can't do themselves.
....
It's a catch22

No, it isn't, because what we're saying is not that we have an innate "womanness" that we can't explain without reference to genitalia, but that we DO NOT have such a feeling, and therefore, can only define "woman" with reference to genitalia.

In asking men who claim to "feel like women" to explain what they mean, we are not asking a trick question: we are just trying to understand what on earth they can mean by something that makes no sense to us.

And in the meantime we have growing evidence that gender identity is innate, from birth...

Can you provide some references or links to this evidence?

Angry attack kittens, I totally get where you are coming from, all I can say is that your gender identity is the same as your biological sex, so therefore you cannot experience gender dysphoria, if you could for a day, maybe it could make you re-evaluate how you consider your gender.

And isn't this the crux? To understand gender dysphoria and the view of gender identity a trans person has, it needs to be experienced, and it can never be experienced by someone who isn't trans who has a different belief of such things, everyone can still come together and figure this out, but it takes listening and trust.

But everybody has in-built bias we work through, sometimes being human we have visceral reactions to other cultures or other human behaviours that is jarring or brings us a disconnect, and it's easy to believe something you don't understand is nefarious.
This is a part of human nature, some people work through it, some people fight to assert their own visceral reactions and bias.

Multiple x-post!

This is honestly disturbing.

I can see some of my information and opinions are meeting quite a bit of resistance

Predictable based on previous interactions with TRAs, but disturbing. So, your expectation was that you would arrive, give women your "information" and your opinions, and we would...what, exactly? Certainly not "resist", that's not very ladylike. Submit, maybe? Would anyone frame a discussion with a group of men on a forum in terms of, gosh, there's so much resistance, who would have thought? Clearly if you have an opinion and our opinion is different then we should replace ours with yours, right?

I'm guessing you probably don't even realize how sexist the way you're framing this is or the fact that it's at a giant blinking neon sign level of obviousness when you're talking to a group of mostly feminists, but yeah.

Tallulah, I'm afraid your going to have to trust the 10's of thousands of experts from the field of endocrinology...
But heres the link www.endocrine.org/advocacy/priorities-and-positions/transgender-health

but it takes listening and trust.

Okay, so listen to us and trust us when we say that we don't have an inner psychological sense of gender.

What I don't understand crisp is why gender identity is considered to have any bearing on sex? I'm not being rhetorical, I don't understand. Can you explain?