Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

Hi everyone - sorry to butt in, but we'd really appreciate it if you could all take a look at KateMumsnet's post over here at some point. Cheers all

How were trans women identified in these studies? Regardless of the results, it seems to me impossible to say a group of people defined as x behaved in way y, and then generalise your findings if you can’t define group x.

However, the principle of self ID is that there is no objective test for group x.

It would be hard to control for - as offending rates vary within groups of men and within groups of women - due to lots of factors.

MoJ already produce data on male vs female offending. The difficult thing would be deciding who to include as trans and what size trans population to use for comparison.

IIRC the Swedish study only included transsexuals who physically transition. That's part of why I say it's outdated. Self-ID is what's being argued for nowadays so that's who should be included, both for offender numbers and population size.

italiangreyhound if you read my posts, you cannot accuse me of not taking gaslighting and abuse seriously. I was merely saying I was uncomfortable with OBVIOUS transphobia (of which I have cited examples) and it made me question whether my view actually aligns with some people's on here. People often deny that there is any transphobia on here at all but they are being wilfully blind if so. Mumsnet is developing such a bad rep as a bigoted place which I think is a shame because there are many people I agree with.

It's also a shame that some of the gender critical people on twitter are now spending their days tweeting insults about trans people, calling them dickheads etc. I just think it distracts from the real issues and gives ammunition to those who say everyone on here is a trans-hater.

Anyway, as you can see from MN's post, they are obviously also of the view that some people are getting very close to the line between GC and transphobic.

"Anyway, as you can see from MN's post, they are obviously also of the view that some people are getting very close to the line between GC and transphobic."

That's not what they said Susan. You are reading your own agenda into it.

@SusanBunch I hopefully did not accuse you of anything but if I did I am sorry.

I have seen transphobia on mumsnet. Yes. But I have also heard any debate on topics like self id labelled transphobic.

It may well be that in general transwomen are more likely to commit crime than women.

But then certain groups of transwomen may well be more likely to commit crime than other groups of transwomen.

And the type of crime most likely to be committed would vary as well.

Just as certain groups of men and women are more likely to commit crime than other groups.

So the crime rate for transwomen compared to the average woman could be the same as the crime rate for a particular group of women compared to the average woman. Because not all groups of women have the same crime rate.

As someone said - the sex offending rate is a different matter. The number of prisoners identifying as trans is alarming.

"It's also a shame that some of the gender critical people on twitter are now spending their days tweeting insults about trans people, calling them dickheads etc. I just think it distracts from the real issues and gives ammunition to those who say everyone on here is a trans-hater"

I agree.

What is your definition of transphobia?

It's wonderful to have you here yetanother, makes the world swing back into proper focus.

Have been away for the afternoon but has calling people “cis” now become acceptable on these boards?

No, it hasn't.

@juells

Thanks

I've had experience of 'the system' and know what it takes to get a GRC. It's kind of strange talking about my concerns to people who are very pro-self ID (especially with people who say they are transgender or non binary) as I do struggle to get that - but then again, people struggle to get being transsexual. I've been accused of wanting to make life harder for trans people -but nothing is being taken away from us.

Anyway, as you can see from MN's post, they are obviously also of the view that some people are getting very close to the line between GC and transphobic.

I imagine they're getting the sort of pressure that you seem unwilling to recognise. I don't think you get what's happening. At all.

But then certain groups of transwomen may well be more likely to commit crime than other groups of transwomen.

Yes. But I don't think it's helpful to deny the issue entirely and I doubt you do too.

i have seen transphobia on mumsnet. Yes. But I have also heard any debate on topics like self id labelled transphobic

I agree

Yes. But I don't think it's helpful to deny the issue entirely and I doubt you do too

Crime has many causes - social causes, lifestyle factors. Being socialised as a male (although growing up feeling wrong may well affect your own personality and the effect of that socialisation), undergoing transition, the effect of that transition on you and your lifestyle (especially the economic and potential social factors of homelessness, drugs and the 'darker' side of that world) is all going to have an effect.

Some trans people may be more at risk from such factors than others. My privileged background didn't prevent me from nearly becoming homeless and unemployed when I transitioned.

Luckily things are becoming better as trans people are less stigmatised in society.

For the moment.

Yet another, may I ask a question. Miranda Yardley says that self ID will erase the protectionniffeted by the Equality Act to transexual people and gender reassignment. There has obviously been a major campaign to remove the word transexual from discourse. Would you be happy to see much widervusebof the word 'transexual'.

"Anyway, as you can see from MN's post, they are obviously also of the view that some people are getting very close to the line between GC and transphobic

I dont know if thats true

Ill ask...

Would you be happy to see much widervusebof the word 'transexual

Yes - I use the word 'trans' - but transsexual is what I am.

yetanothertranswoman

I think of the term transgender as practically meaningless though. So perhaps we don't mean the same group of people?

I think of the term transgender as practically meaningless though

When someone says they are transgender, I think of someone who wants to 'wear clothes to do with the opposite sex' and maybe who wants to wear make up. I don't think they want HRT, surgery or to change their documents.

And if someone is non - binary, well I don't really know what that means.

I think we agree on that then.

Wow, ok I promise I will step back in due course, but seeing as I'm being '@'d I'll make a further post and leave it for a bit.

Pencils,
I agree but it's very difficult for trans orgs to get anything done, let alone campaign for funding, all efforts are mostly spent countering the misinformation and the current media anti-trans backlash.
In essence it is up to those who have the wherewithal and resources to do a study, to take it up, however there really isn't huge call for it, despite the misinformation, their is no epidemic of trans offending.

Italian greyhound
you are posting links from an explicitly anti-trans propaganda group.

Vickxy
James caspian was accepted to his study on his original premise, when he could not find enough detransitioners to study, he changed the terms of his proposition and was rejected, it was clear evidence his own assertions were wrong.

Pom Bear...
I'm not sure that is a good faith interpretation of my points :-)
But bless you, your welcome to them.

Langcleg
Agp is now decades old quackery that relies on stacks of evidence and further understanding that we have gained on gender identity in the meantime, like proponents of ROGD, it relies on the conclusion that gender identity doesnt exist or is transient.
The endocrine society, one of the largest and oldest medical institutions that deals with the complex relationship between hormones and biology reached a consensus and released a position statement last year declaring gender idenity has biological underpinnings, innate, and is most definitely not transient.
Thereby being yet another study by actual world class experts, that disputes Blanchards AGP quackery.

Flowers.
I don't know what to tell you, Celia has clearly stated after studying that she regards trans women as no risk to women.
And says in the second cohort group, there were no raised levels of criminality, raised meaning compared to cis women, therefore if the 2nd co-hort has no raised levels, it is comparative to cis women.
You are fully entitled to interpret it your own way, but it is still very clear it is being totally misrepresented in very extreme ways online by others. I think to fully accept your premise, would require someone to believe Celia is seeking to deceive in some way or be economical with the truth rather than take her words at face value.

Best wishes to all.

@crispbuttyfan

I haven't RTFT.

Are you trans?

And if so - how do you define yourself?

Italian greyhound
you are posting links from an explicitly anti-trans propaganda group

No. It isn't. It's a gender critical women's rights group.

Just read on Twitter

"We hate it when women speak = hate speech"

very true

Still with the cis.