Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

Not cis

Sorry, cross-post: thanks for the link

People have all kinds of psychological strangeness. If people can feel - and they can - that other people are just simulations, that their own leg doesn't belong to them, that they are a reincarnation of a long-dead emperor, etc etc, we shouldn't be surprised that some people feel they should have been born with a different body to the one they have. However, these delusions are all comparable. It's stupid to pretend one of them is different, and isn't to be regarded as a delusion, or can only be treated with affirmation. Let alone to say that people can be treated with affirmation as though they had this delusion and that were the best way of treating it, even though they claim to be healthy!

Speaking for myself, I'm perfectly ready to believe that some people have an innate sense of gender identity. I just don't believe that that determines their sex.

I'm not, sorry to say! I could go this far:

Speaking for myself, I'm perfectly ready to believe that some people believe they have a gender identity just as I am perfectly ready to believe that some people believe they have a soul. I just don't believe that that determines their sex or that any deity exists.

Angry attack kittens, the problem is I was just noticing ad hominem attacks, about blue brains, and MRA's, and people constantly scanning my posts taking a line out of context, and interpreting in some other way as a slight against what I have said, like you did yourself.

It's fine, I have become accustomed to this kind of thing, I heard mumsnet had a transphobia problem, I wanted to share some evidence and facts, I didn't expect somewhere with a transphobic reputation to roll out the welcome mat exactly, I saw this thread discussing exactly that transphobic reputation, and I have stayed on this topic, I am really not interested in just posting trans positive stuff for the sake of it, but I felt some wuestions were genuinely asked with an open mind, and so I continued to post.

Theres not much else for me to say, I was just offering a different point of view to the main flow, as a means of discussion. Best wishes to all.

Angry attack kittens, I totally get where you are coming from, all I can say is that your gender identity is the same as your biological sex

How can you say that you know that? What is the universal definition of gender identity?

But if there was some sense of dissonance then that wouldn't mean that I was a man, or not a woman if you're someone who subscribes to the agender/demigirl/etc way of framing this issue. It would mean that I had a psychological issue with how I perceived myself. It doesn't automatically follow from there that I would be correct about my "identity" and everyone else would be wrong.

Again, I've talked to lots of trans women, and that sense of shared experience just isn't there. Some of them have been nice people, a couple I've been happy to be friendly with, but that sense of "this is a person like me"? Nope, not even online, where you can't see people and be influenced by their appearance in terms of perception. Fundamentally different category of human. Whereas even with women who I don't like at all it is there.

Our experiences shape who we are, and so do our bodies. If you say "I am X", and the vast majority of the people who fall into group X don't agree and don't understand why you would even believe that, then the logical conclusion is that you are not part of group X. You may be part of group Z and that may be a lovely group of people, but it's not the same group of people.

Some of the reasoning could be claimed that if there was no difference between what cis men feel and what trans women feel how is their obvious sense of self entirely different?
Wouldn't that mean more than 1% would identify as trans, if it was all the same?

Many people are in a group that is less than 1% of a population. That doesn't mean they aren't part of that population.

However your logic seems to be that because trans men are not like other men and say they are women, they are therefore women. That doesn't make sense.

but when people want to learn about a minority, you have to ask and accept what they tell you at face value

I don't though. I can respect you personally in the same way that I respect some people I know who believe in homeopathy, but I don't have to believe that you are right, particularly when your belief has a direct negative impact on me.

I need to be able to define clearly what a woman is because being a woman has clear physical consequences for me. No group can have rights, services or protections if they can't be defined. More than that, I need to live in a society where language can be used clearly.

Well LangCleg I would be equally happy to say 'I'm perfectly ready to believe that some people have an innate sense of inferiority' without in any way implying that I believed them to be actually inferior. I chose my language to be completely non-commital on the actual truth value of innate senses

Again, I've talked to lots of trans women, and that sense of shared experience just isn't there.

Actually, I don't agree with this. I can think of plenty of men and at least a few trans woman who I feel more of an affinity with than e.g. Andrea Leadsom.

Although I am sure AL is in many ways a lovely person!

I find it strange that no trans orgs are calling for further research in this area.
Delusional disorders demand affirmation of the delusion. It is part of the disorder. There is only one acceptable treatment. Affirmation.
It is rather like the "abstinence only" advocates, if you think about it. Belief is all that matters. Material reality and facts are beside the point.

crisp I've had a look at the link you posted. It provided two references relevant to the question of whether gender identity is biologically determined: one just reiterated this position without providing or citing any evidence for it, the other was behind a paywall. So I am not yet convinced.

But my question still stands: even if gender identity exists and is biologically determined, what does this have to do with sex?

Angry attack kittens, I totally get where you are coming from, all I can say is that your gender identity is the same as your biological sex, so therefore you cannot experience gender dysphoria, if you could for a day, maybe it could make you re-evaluate how you consider your gender.
That is false. Many girls experience gender dysphoria when they go through puberty.
I do not know about AAK's experience but I am frustrated that you, crispy, continue to state as fact things that we know are not true.

crispbuttyfan

Many women say they don't feel female and without referring to genitalia cannot explain being what a women is, it's not a 'feeling'... but at the same time ask trans women to explain it, something some cis women say they can't do themselves.

so when trans women are asked to explain something so abstract and difficult given very limiting language, sometimes a trans women, may use clumsy clunky language, in a very basic attempt to convey an aspect of it, this is usually taken in bad faith and used as a gotcha.

That is because, as AngryAttackKittens so wonderfully explained in her post, that being a woman - an adult human female - is entirely about biological sex and the socialization you receive as a result of that. That's it. There is nothing else to it.

Women are just human beings who are born female. Society has sought to control women (as a class) because of our (as a class) ability to gestate young. It is this controlling of reproductive capability that is at the heart of women's oppression. Because of this, male and female children are treated very differently, from birth onwards.

But that's it. There is no feminine essence or way to feel womanly or feel female beyond biology. Women - adult human females - are diverse, with vastly different personalities and interests and strengths and weaknesses. To say that there's something else to being a woman is to say that women who do not have or feel that "something" are not women, or are not womanly or feminine enough - which is, quite frankly, sexist.

The reason we ask what it's like to feel like a woman is because of this - there is no way to be or feel like a woman other than biology, and the socialization you receive because of it. There is no one personality trait, way of dressing, way of being, hobby, interest, cognitive function, etc. that is common to all women. The only thing common to all women is biology and socialization.

Feminists have been fighting for decades to uncouple gender (by this I mean the social construct, the roles and interests and personality traits that society deems appropriate for one sex or the other) from
biological sex. Because women are just human beings who happen to have been born female.

crisp

Sorry

Have i missed where you replied to yetanothertranswoman

Obviously you should feel free not to answer...but it might be polite to tell her that you are not going to answer

If you have replied and i have missed it...abject apologies

Im trying to read three books, watch a movie and mumsnet ...its not going well

The Swedish study uses two cohorts, from different time periods. But the results take people from both cohorts.

The first conclusion was taken from men identifying as women.

The second conclusion was taken from both men and women identifying as the opposite sex.

You can disagree with Ray Blanchard all you like about AGP. I have read his study and the objections to it. The objections to it did not dispute his findings. It's more about race and sexual orientation. The existence of AGP is not disputed.

It's ludicrous to suggest that autogynephilia doesn't exist.

There is an entire thread, on mumsnet, devoted to it.

#GirlsLikeUs, #TransGirls. Numerous sites where men talk about it. Almost all of them will say they are transgender.

There is a schism in the community with transsexuals trying to distance themselves from men with the fetish.

Without even considering whether transwomen in general have male crime patterns, you have an entire cohort who fetishise womanhood. campaigning for access to female spaces. To support their fetish.

Good lord. Women can read.

There are fetishist sites where you can identify people, people who are in the media. They make no secret of it.

There are sites who catalogue it. Absolutely nothing to do with feminism. None of these sites are feminist.

You can't really turn round and say this isn't affecting women. There are incidents, on a daily basis, where it absolutely is affecting women. In real life.

Im trying to read three books, watch a movie and mumsnet ...its not going well

I'm drinking wine, watching Fawlty Towers, making tea and Mumsnetting

As per KateMumnet's advice, I'm Michelle-ing hard - chants at keyboard, Michelle, Michelle, Michelle!

Firstly, thank you crispy for sharing your pov. I think it may help even more people like me, who lurk for so long on threads like these and others, thinking, reading up in the background, listening to lots of opinions, before saying anything. Perhaps unwittingly, you're doing great work for natal women!

My intuition is you are 'old-school' attempting to steer the debate here, without clear understanding of what's happening in the 'new-school' out there both on the internet and in political spheres. From much of what you say, you'd actually be 'truscum' by TRAs' definition, if you put your points out in other spaces rather than here, particularly around gender dysphoria and not conflating transexuals with everything else in the trans pot.

Secondly, thank you to all the contributors to this thead and others who keep calm, patient in the face of blatant sexism (and I mean that in the biological sense) to present rational, calm points of view, not rising to effectively insults on womanhood. I have read so many of your posts over the months and am blown away by your articulate, intelligent and good-humoured approach to addressing this issue. You stand for many of us lurkers, you take the flak, and continue on. Thank you. You have helped me understand the issues.

Thirdly, bunch of massive flowers to Mumsnet. Thank you for allowing this debate, this air space to properly debate, and I would imagine that you are currently standing up to a much bigger onslaught of attack than we see on these threads. You have been my go-to place as a woman over the years, with all that entails, and I am so thrilled that you remain steadfast in holding those values.

And a final point - I felt patronised for the very first time today on Mumsnet. I got a 'bless you' from crispy for expressing my opinion. Fascinating where it came from.

Michelle-ing onwards.

I don't mean general affinity, I mean specifically the awareness that I'm talking to another woman. Which is there even when she's an awful person, and is particularly obvious when discussing certain topics.And not there with men, or with trans women.

Aaahhh Fawlty towers is awesome

My eldest two binge watch it on a regular basis

MN does not have a transphobic problem.

TRAs have a cognitive dissonance problem that people on MN aren't buying into. Which strangely enough includes the magic mystical trans people who also are welcomed on MN despite of this supposed transphobia (cognitive no1).

Women on MN think sex is important to their existence and self identity, which TRAs are seeking to remove whilst professing how important it is to their safety, well being and mental health that they are allowed to identify exactly how they like without thought to anyone else (cognitive dissonance no2).

TRAs say all medical gate keeping should be removed, and no questions about medication they are taking should be asked because they are trans. Fine except this is against all medical ethics and doctors would leave themselves open to being struck off if they didn't ask the same questions you'd expect as a matter of routine for any other human being. Not forgetting the protests that they don't have mental health problems despite rabbiting on about suicide rates every five minutes. (Cognitive dissonance no 3).

Then there is the whole thing of transwomen are women. Except of course when they choose not to be and decide they need their own safe spaces, which women are not allowed. (Cognitive dissonance no 4).

I could carry on. I won't.

They can bugger off with their transphobic nonsense, until this cognitive dissonance buggers off and they can stop spouting a load of utter bollocks which just shits all over women.

Also, this?

But everybody has in-built bias we work through, sometimes being human we have visceral reactions to other cultures or other human behaviours that is jarring or brings us a disconnect, and it's easy to believe something you don't understand is nefarious.

Nice attempt to frame women who don't believe they have an innate gender identity as being like racists, mate, but I'm married to a person from a culture with no historical connection to my own (and whose race is also clearly and visibly different to mine) and have never found his behavior "jarring" or concluded that it's nefarious.

Culture clash moments do happen sometimes if you travel a lot, but most of us experience those as confusion (wait, what just happened, did I say/do something wrong?) rather than fear of the nefarious other. Maybe you do experience people different to yourself as nefarious and scary? If so, that's unfortunate, but maybe stop projecting that response onto other people.

Natural bias. This is two way thing.

I am well aware of it. I've been on MN for well over ten years, talking about it. The whole thing of removing emotion from an argument etc etc. I have talked about challenging your original thought extensively in the past.

I find it funny that some people think this is a new concept that no one on MN has ever come across before.

Its almost as this is being used as a way to emotional blackmail women into to questioning whether they really have thought about things hard enough.

I've spent over a decade trying to bend over backwards for someone doing that, and not had one inch in return about how this might affect women. It was only when I went enough, this is the very thing thats causing me problems and damaging me emotionally that I felt better.

I'm certainly not going to tolerate people saying other women aren't trying hard enough when there isn't a drop of acknowledgment about women's concerns and there is just repeated platitudes and patronising that it won't happen, when there are already examples of x, y or z issues having already happened.

Enough. Start listening to women. TRAs have done enough talking up to this point. Now its our turn.

The reason why men who identify as women have to use 'clunky' language and have difficulty describing what they feel, is because being a woman isn't feeling.

It's a description. Of biological reproductive function.

That's it.

Men who don't want to be men, or masculine, only have one place to go. But even if every fibre of their being tells them that their sex is wrong, it doesn't make them the opposite sex.

I totally understand how gender dysphoria forces them into this position. And I have bottomless empathy. Truly. It must be a fricken nightmare.

But it has nothing to do with actual women.

Men who have gender dysphoria, men who want to be women, men who have a profound affinity with women - aren't women.

The only shared experience is if they pass 100 percent and therefore experience sexism, but sexism on a more superficial level. I. E not related to their actual biology. (childbirth, maternity protocols, pregnancy, the mummy penalty, men being the default for health care symptoms, etc, etc).

Is there common ground? Yes, of course. Especially if their affinity for women takes feminism into account.

And that, to me, is the case for transwomen.

But you have to be able to exclude them from all the misogynists, bullies, and fetishists.

And until someone finds a way to do that, the only distinction women can make is sex.

And even then, this is only a viewpoint from the transwomen's side.

Many women will have a visceral reaction to a man in their space, even if he is completely harmless and suffering from gender dysphoria.