Trans unpeak moment

[Sunflowersforever]

Have really been tuned into the whole self-Id issue and subsequent discussions through mumsnet, and appalled at the encroachment into women spaces and the silencing of women's voices. Was so glad to have read Hadley Freeman's article and how she summed up concerns in such an articulate way that reflected my views.

Ok. Here is the unpeak trans bit.

On HFs twitter feed, someone posted about selfid saying. "It means swearing a statutory declaration that you are living as a woman (and there are legal consequences if you lie), changing your name and documents, telling friends, colleagues, family".

Is that correct? If it is, I didn't know that and it changes the whole 'any man can enter a woman's space unchallenged' argument a bit as surely documented proof can be produced if challenged?

Someone else also said Ireland had adopted this law with no consequences? Really?

Anyone aware if any of this is true?

@AnchorMum

I apologise if I'm already telling you the road you know, but have you taken a look at Transgendertrends website?

They are very concerned with rapid onset gender dysphoria, which mainly affects young women, and have quite a few resources.

Also Lily Maynard. Her teenage daughter identified as a boy. They both blog about it. Her daughter has since detransitioned, and offers some valuable insight into motivation for both parts of her journey.

It all comes back to ' what is a woman'. And as far as I know that has yet to be answered.

It all comes back to ' what is a woman'. And as far as I know that has yet to be answered.

Not that it was even a question until now :(

user1487175389

Expressing verbal hate (as misgendering) could be a hate incident but is not a crime. For it to be a crime a crime has to be committed and to be a hate crime it has to be motivated by hate for a protected group.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/hate-crime/what-are-hate-incidents-and-hate-crime/

Examples of hate crimes
Here are examples of hate crimes:

assaults
criminal damage
harassment
murder
sexual assault
theft
fraud
burglary
hate mail (Malicious Communications Act 1988)
causing harassment, alarm or distress (Public Order Act 1986).

Causing harassment, alarm or distress could cover anything you wanted it to cover.

@CharlieParley changes to the Equality Act were proposed by Maria Miller's committee but not acted upon by the government. The government's proposals are here www.gov.uk/government/news/new-action-to-promote-lgbt-equality

There used to be a poster on here that used that same list to prove misgendering was a hate crime. He was an idiot,though.

Exactly. Isn't Posie Parker threatened with malicious communications, public order act causing distress and hate crime for calling a TIM a man? None of which was actually directed at said people.

We are well aware that the EA is a problem both in the wording and how it's applied, Sarah. That has no bearing on whether we also challenge proposed changes to the GRA.

@jellyfrizz See this case www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2003/1045.html which shows how the courts interpret gender reassignment discrimination claims.

Hi Datun, can I just say one yhing, I believe Lily's daughter desisted rather than detransitioned thanks to Lily's approach. I.e. Stopped before any hormones or anything like that.

Really? You're giving as case law in gender reassignment claims a case before both the GRA and Equality Act came into being? If that is still how courts find, what do you imagine the point of passing those laws was?

Also debbie666 the Met Police says a hate offence may occur if an actual crime hasn't, due to the intention of the person. So calling someone the pronouns they dislike is not a crime, but the Metcssys that if they think the intention was hateful, it might be a crime anyway. Much thought Police.

A pile of misinfomation is being spread by a misogynist far right group about proposed changes to legislation. That group is very vocal and gets its untruths onto TV and in the papers regularly.

I don't think transactivists are classed as 'far right' are they? But yes, you are quite correct. They are misogynistic (very homophobic too) and get untruths onto TV and in the papers regularly, indeed.

@LostArt I don't see anything in the newspaper reporting concerning GRC or surgical status. However, this case involved sentencing. Given the goal of internet sex offender programmes are to prevent reoffending, the judge probably felt that the defendant would not engage with it if she were sent to a men's programme. He choose another form of punishment, which he felt would be more effective.
This is completely different to a discrimination case.

Pratchet

Yes, you're right. I still need to get to grips with the two different descriptions. So detransitioning can only occur after some kind of medical intervention?

Does that still apply if someone has socially transitioned for years? Without any kind of medical modification?

Anchor

@ Ereshkigal. Yes there have been changes to the law. The EA extended and consolidated the law. Exceptions were also included in the EA.
And the GRA provides a mechanism to legally change gender. A case today would probably focus on the exceptions but I am sure Croft would still be referenced.

But I mention Croft as it shows the judicial deliberation and the balancing of rights. I have seen not any case since Croft that suggest this would be replaced with a rubber stamp.

"This is completely different to a discrimination case."

I never said it was a discrimination case. I was obviously using it as an example of how a TIM can persuade the courts that they "live as a women".

Exceptions were also included in the EA.

Yes Sarah, we know. Problem is the trans lobby have convinced many organisations including practically all public sector ones that it's bigoted and legally unwise to use them. And government guidance has been written suggesting that there is a high bar to justifying the exemptions.

So clearly other legal brains don't agree with you that women's rights are balanced with anti gender reassignment discrimination law.

@AnchorMum

If you haven't seen it yet, you may want to check out 4thwavenow.com/. It's full of other mums who're in the same situation as you with their daughters suddenly deciding to transition. Might be something there that could help you work your way through this minefield.

The whole "nobody noticed or was bothered" thing, which so many TIMs who come here announce, is such a laughable example of male socialization blinding TIMs to how women's lives work and allowing them to not care about our feelings. Indeed, most women won't say anything, either because they think it would be rude to do so or because they're scared that if they make the male person they're in an enclosed space with angry he might hurt them. No, this does not mean that they didn't notice or mind. You, male person, may not even notice that they do mind, unless they say something, which they probably won't. If you notice them noticing you might get angry, so they'll likely to try make sure you don't notice them noticing. Your male socialization may lead you to interpret the head down get out quickly reaction or the forced smile as neutral or friendly. It's not. It's fear.

When I saw the report by Maria Miller she was actively advocating changes to the Equality Act. That by definition might include removing exemption.

A lot of the TRA have been going along those lines with what they say. The complete removal of exemptions. So Gender effectively replaces Sex in law.

This appears to be what the change to Scottish law does in practice.

So this is important to discuss and acknowledge.

It is one of the key concerns of women. I am yet to see much from Labour or LDs to reassure me on that. In fact everything to the contrary.

Amber Rudd has said she would look at keeping the Equality Act as it is from what I've seen suggested.

I don't think transactivists are classed as 'far right' are they

A lot are far left. Which is close in belief to the far right in some areas. They aren't big on tolerance and democratic process for example. Neither like women very much either.

@SarahAr I usually point people to the actual government response to the report, because there you can see for yourself what has been recommended and how detrimental it is to women.

FYI the new Scottish law on female participation in non-exec company boards is instructive in where this is going:

• a redefinition of woman,
• a declaration that other protected characteristics take priority over the female sex, even in circumstances where sex is the basis of discrimination,
• born women are seen as second class women and transwomen as first class,
• the fiction enshrined in law that men can actually become the female sex
• the confirmation that no process whatsoever has to take place to self-id as a woman
• stating the intention to be a woman is enough to be accepted as a woman under this law

And the reason why we are debating this is right now is in the hope to convince our politicians to make laws in this area based on material reality not individual feelings and states of mind. That is hasn't yet happened is no consolation to me or I dare say any of the other gender critical mumsnetters.